Today is the day. Tons of action in terms of trades has already happened with the Big Shaq to to Cleveland deal finally happening. I expect much more throughout the day before the draft and/or during the draft.
Use this spot as the official 2009 NBA Draft post to discuss any and anything draft related. Post new deals or rumors in the comments. Trades you think the Sixers should, talk about players, scenarios everything all day and during the draft. Pete and I are watching the game together and will chime in all day and during the draft. We might even add each pick to this post with a short comment to keep things entertaining.
Also if you haven’t already go take part in the Friendly NBA Mock Draft Contest (deadline is 5pm).
Let’s hope the Sixers make some productive and savvy noise today.
I will start it off with this scenario that Pete and I have been pondering as of late…
Right now Chad Ford has Ty Lawson going 13 to Indiana and gives it a 60% chance. DraftExpress also had Ty going at 13. Over the last couple weeks Ty’s stock has apparently improved from being as low as the mid 20′s on Ford’s early mocks to no lower than 17 to the Sixers on many others. I really want Lawson in a Sixers. I think he is being underrated. I think he isn’t given enough credit for his production. I think his height and minor injuries are a bigger concern to people than should be or with other prospects. And I actually think his upside may be the most underrated thing of all. Dude has three years college experience and lead his team to a national championship and is still only 21 years old (22 in November). End Lawson rant.
With that in mind who do you think the Sixers should choose with the 17th pick IF point guard is the position to take (ignoring shooting guard options here) among Jeff Teague, Brandon Jennings, Eric Maynor, Darren Collison? Rank them 1-4 and give your reasons why.
Have at it.
Here is another look at the guard prospects in the draft by basketball prospectus. Ty Ranks 3rd among points and 4th overall. The money line:
Check it out
After seeing that list, I was disappointed that the Sixers do not seem to have an opportunity to draft a player whose game translates and compares to Jumaine Jones.
Dannie, I’d be interested to see if something like this analysis existed 3+ years ago so we can see if these predicters are accurate. For instance, who correctly predicting that guys like Parker, Rondo, Granger, Nelson, etc. would be solid and that guys like Gerald Green would suck?
Those are the guys I’d read in the present for their thoughts and who I’d take seriously.
If you haven’t already here is the podcast with Stefanski where Ed talks about moving up and says “we would covet a guy like Curry from Davidson, but wouldn’t want to give up like a Thaddeus Young or Speights” (paraphrased)
The question starts at about the 4:54 mark to save you some time.
Stu – Who would you pick of the 4 points I mentioned above if Lawson is off the board?
With regard to your question about accurate draft predictions… do you have ESPN insider?
There are two things you could look at:
1.D.R.A.F.T. Initiative (Data-Related Analysis For Truth) – takes a long-term, historical look at the draft. The biggest conclusion might be:
They go over a ton of stuff there such as:
2. John Hollinger’s Draft Rater – His model for projecting how college players will translate to the NBA. He says:
He shows you his rating/projections going back to the 2002 draft. To your point Stu, Hollinger says this:
Stu if you don’t have insider let me know and I will answer whatever questions you have about this stuff if you’d like.
The Lakers as they have indicated sold their first round pick, to the Knicks for the max of $3M.
1. Eric Maynor – I believe in most cases it is wise to take the best available player, if your number one option has already been taken (Lawson). Maynor I think is the best available point guard and fits our team the best out of these four players. I think he is a little bit overrated but I saw the leadership qualities that I needed to in college. More on the importance of leadership below.
2. Jeff Teague- I really think Teague is going to be a real solid player in this league. And I would greatly consider taking him over Maynor. Unfortunately, Teague has failed to show any leadership qualities and whoever takes him will most likely end up using him as a combo guard because of it. We already have our sucky combo guard. (Do I even have to mention his name?) You can clearly see the importance of leadership in a PG by looking at the league today. Billups is a prime example of how leadership can help you. Marbury is a prime example of how the lack of leadership can hurt you. But I really like Teague, just not as our PG.
3. Brandon Jennings- This one is tough. He played in the 2nd best league in the world last year. He played overseas at a very young age in a totally different scenario than any other high schooler graduating. That alone shows me that he is dedicated and tough. But the big question remains… Can he play? No doubt he is an athlete who can get into the lane and create. But his jumpshot is lacking big time I would say, which is probably why he didn’t see much playing time last year. If he’s so good why didn’t he play more? Now I do think he is a good player and he wouldn’t be a bad choice here, but I’m just not sold. One thing to be mentioned though, His defense is underrated. I’m judging this solely on the fact that when he played Rubio he shut him down. Maybe I shouldn’t judge him on that considering he only played him for 9 minutes. Tough guy to critique.
4. Darren Collison- I don’t think we would ever choose him unless we acquire a 2nd round pick or a very late 1st round pick. And to be honest, I don’t know much about him. I know he was a successful player in college and I heard his name mentioned a lot. I just don’t know exactly what kind of player he is. Is he the type to get his teammates involved? Is he a score-first guard? Can he shoot? I just don’t know much about him but judging by where everyone predicts him going, I’d say he’s the worst out of this bunch of players. Personally I’d take Ellington over him anyday and I’m sure a lot of people would. But since this is PG’s only I guess Collison is last.
1. BRANDON JENNINGS- by far a cut above the rest (with no doubt). No need to say anymore. The guy was sought out in the second best league in the world out of high school and was No. 1 coming out of high school on many official rankings.
2/3. Eric Maynor- (I really believe him and Teague are interchangeable)
2/3. Jeff Teague- (Will be better offensively than Maynor. Maynor is more of a pure point) ***I give the advantage to Teague since he can learn to run a team, if presumably Miller stays, and his offensive skill set will benefit sixers more, especially in stretching the floor)
4. Darren Collison- (4th best in this group)
Jeff Teague seems to be the wild card here. On the one hand, all I’ve heard about are the various remarks to his questionable leadership qualities. What does this mean exactly?
-is he just soft-spoken?
-is it better to have a cocky point such as Brandon Jennings running his mouth?
-maybe he just lets his game speak for itself and will allow other vocal leaders to run the show.
I know that there is a stigma that point guards have to be the vocal “leaders”, however Teague has never been called “cocky” and as far as I know he is very well-respected as both a man and with his game. Dino Gaudio was DYING to have him back for the Deacons to make a run. Its not like he was looking for his “non-leader” to jump to the NBA.
As Dannie has pointed out numerous times, Teague may have the highest ceiling of anybody and really, isn’t that the most important factor here? He dominated for the better part of the season at Wake, and all of sudden his quiet demeanor has put him down on the draft boards…
I would take a quiet point over some me-first, a-hole moron like Jennings (who by the way, wasn’t even smart enough to CHEAT to qualify to get into school). Teague went to a very good academic institution and excelled without much fanfare and no controversy surrounding his name.
Coupled with his game, I think he is the guy. Iggy, Brand, and Thad will be the leaders and role models, Teague can learn from them.
In other words, Brandon Jennings can join the DeShawn Stevenson school of outspoken ree-rees that will really look out for himself as numero uno and be a solid rotation player on a lottery/.500 team.
Jennings can stay in Italy for all I care. I wouldn’t even take him in the second round. I see another Lou Williams with that guy, pass.
I get all the Brandon Jennings hype. He was the best high school player in the country I believe. I’d be excited we got him and worried he’d be a tremendous bust at the same time. The Europe thing is eh to me. He barely played. We can only hope he learned a ton with the experience. I hear he matured a lot, eh. Did he learn how to play basketball the right way over there is what matters more to me. When he did actually play word is he showed flashes but really wasn’t productive overall and shot pretty poorly as well.
Biggest thing for him I think as he transitions is knowing when to shot and when to pass and get his shot selection in order and of course risk vs. reward with regard to taking care of the ball and making plays passing.
My draft board:
1. Lawson
2. Jennings
3. Mayner
4. Ellington
5. Teague
And if we trade for an early 2nd round pick:
-Jodie Meeks
-Dionte Christmas
-Jeryl McNeal
-Tony Douglas
-Josh Heytfelt
Why we should NOT draft Jeff Teague: He’s not a PG. He is a great college basketball player that has amazing confidence and a lot of skill…but he is a scorer. His role in the NBA is to be a Leandro Barbosa type…he is explosive instant offense, and he would excel in that role. I would LOVE to have him as a replacement for Lou Williams in what should be Lou’s role…but our more important concern is a starting PG for the future. Teague is not that, and does not have the PG skills to run a team and distribute the ball on an 82 game basis.
Why we should NOT draft Darren Collison: I honestly don’t know how anyone can watch college basketball and view Collison as anything more then a backup. He is a rock solid, steady player that has improved every year and is leaving college a proven veteran. But this guy isn’t going to change the dynamic of a team, cause a “wow” factor, or make any team a winner. He would make a very good backup PG…and that is not our foremost concern.
The ultimate question to me is: Brandon Jennings vs. Eric Mayner if both are there. As much as I like Eric Mayner, I’d probably err on the side of Brandon Jennings, simply because the little I’ve seen of him is VERY impressive, I love his confidence and swagger (seems AI like…in a good way), and he is a freak athlete, improving shot, and I’d imagine playing with the bball IQ-ville that is Europe, where coaches have HIGH expectations about being a team player, will have matured Jennning’s game. I almost NEVER go to bat for players that are all potential…but at #17 it’s ok to gamble a bit, and I just like this kid. Read a lot about his progression as a person from his original town to Oak Hill to Europe…interesting guy.
Either Jennings or Mayner would make me happy though…Mayner can really ball.
Suede (off your post in the last draft thread): Why would you want a Steve Blake/Darren Collison combo? You are essentially talking about trading so we can split time between two backup PG’s…a scenario that almost never works, and only tends to cause logjam issues and unsettled roles for the two players where they both feel they should be earning more minutes.
Seattle had this with Luke Ridnour and Earl Watson for a while, and more recently Milwaukee with Ridnour and Sessions, Memphis with Conley Jr. and Lowry. Imo, a very unproductive move that doesn’t pan out; teams tend to be best when there is a clearly defined pecking order. Plus, in this draft, I wouldn’t gamble on ANY sure thing as far as where players are going…this is one of the most insane drafts I’ve seen as far as movement before the actual day and unpredictability.
Dave T., you say so yourself that Jeff Teague is “an explosive scorer”. Wouldn’t that be perfect for this Sixers team? You don’t think that we could benefit from a go-to explosive scorer when we need a big shot? I mean, we had DONYELL MARSHALL taking our big shots last season.
PGs can be found and developed. Hell, we made a finals with ERIC SNOW. I think Teague would be a great draft pick, and think you actually agree.
What wouldn’t be great is to have a bunch of great passers and nobody that can score in bunches (and please don’t tell me Iggy is that guy).
Another thing about Jennings that I don’t like – there are no public testing results for him. How big is he really he is listed at 6’1 is that legit? Is he as rail thin as Maynor? About his athleticism what are his numbers. Just like to see for comparison sake.
One thing in favor of Jennings is Stefanski said he wouldn’t NOT draft a guy that didn’t come in for a workout.
Cheesesteak: Mayner and Teague are far from interchangeable. Teague is a dynamite, explosive scorer that is a great slasher and can get in the paint at will. But he is a SCORER, an undersized SG, whose best role in the NBA would be a combo guard off the bench to sparkplug the offense.
Mayner can legitimately run a team. He is a great decision maker, has a good shot, fearless…but most importantly, can actually distribute the ball, has MUCH better court vision than Teague, and has the rare gift to know when to take over a game and be selfish, vs. when to get teammates involved and not look for his own shot. Also, he’s much craftier then Teague, whereas Teague relies more on bursts of athleticism and quickness. Mayner’s IQ is much higher as well…great at coming off screens and moving without the ball.
I also think the underrated thing about Mayner is that he HAD to score as much as he did at VCU. You put him in a different role on another team, I believe his assist numbers would have been way up, the man can flat out thread the needle and has a great eye for where to get the ball. I coul very much see him transitioning to more of a passing point in the pros where in college he was much more a ball dominating scoring PG.
Mayner a rock solid pick…Brandon Jennings the risk/reward with possibly FAR greater potential. @!#$ playing it safe…I say swing for the fences on this one, and take Brandon, and then bust our ass to re-sign A-Miller to mentor him.
The latest from Chad Ford:
Stu: PG’s can be “just found and developed”, really? PG is by far the most important position in basketball. Yes, we got to the finals with Eric Snow…because we had a FREAK SHOW HALL OF FAMER named Allen Iverson on our team, that hoisted us on his back game after a game because the rest of the team were role players. There is no one on our roster remotely in the same stratosphere as AI…hence the need to develop a TRUE FUTURE PG for years to come.
And if you read my post, I did say I love Teague as a player, and would be thrilled if we basically had him as our 6th man and shipped Lou Will out of town. But I think it’s way more important to shore up the future of the PG slot. And I’d rather take Ellington, who has more height, and a ridiculous stroke from 3, over Teague as a backup guard.
Anyone else find it laughable that teams in the 13-18 range have a better shot at landing one of the top three PG’s in the draft (Lawson) instead of teams picking 5-12, because everyone is buying into the hype of Tyreke Evans and Jrue Holiday? God bless those two guys and their unproven, erratic, athlete-only talent and how high they were ranked as recruits out of high school.
John Hollinger is chatting right now…
Dave T., What I meant was is that I feel like PGs can be developed and are easier to come by then pure, explosive scorers, which is also a pressing need for this Sixers team. For more on the PGs that do the job that came in with little hype see Chalmers, Mario.
Also Dave T., when you just described Evans and Holliday, couldn’t you throw Jennings into that group of “unproven, erratic, athlete-only talent and how high they were ranked as recruits out of high school”, who is a guy that you said you’d take? Just sayin’…
I am really hoping that the Sixers make a draft day trade for Anquan Boldin.
Stu: Absolutely, to your Jennings thing. I’m a guy that 90% of the time will bank on sure things over hype and “ceiling potential”. But with Tyreke Evans and Holiday, I’ve actually watched them multiple times, enough for me to actually form opinions on their games. Brandon Jennings I really dont know much about, and am more relying on others and clips of Virtus Bologna games Ive seen. He seems to be much more of a PG then the others, and my bias is that I probably put more credit into his year in Europe than others would.
I really have no idea whether I’d take Mayner or Jennings, I go back and forth each second. All I know is that if we DO take Jennings, we had better resign A-Miller as soon as humanely possible, regardless if $10 million a year is what he’s asking.
To your PG vs. Scorer thing…I disagree. I think it’s very common for pure scorers to come out in college. Some of the only years where I havent seen legit SG’s and great combo bench guys are ’08 and this year. Besides those three, drafts are usually littered with guys that can put up monster scoring numbers in college…and the problem is that, like Teague, they are usually too small to start at SG in the NBA. My basic theory is that if you are 6’1 – 6’3 and play SG in college, unless you are a rare Iverson like talent, you are coming off the bench in the NBA. There are handfuls of guys that score 17-23 ppg in college at that height that make great backups.
Did Chalmers make the transition to PG? Yes. But that doesnt mean he is anyone’s ideal NBA pg. The Heat have constantly looked to upgrade their PG position…and its likely Chalmers, like most 6’2 – 6’3 combo guys, will wind up in a Delonte West type role. Backup combo guard getting 25 mpg…just as Teague should. Chalmers, and this year’s Jeryl McNeal, are rare guys that understand the game so well and work hard that both COULD probably make the transition to PG, and be legit starters eventually…but right now that’s far from a sure thing. I sincerely doubt the Heat feel they found their “answer” at PG…but rather feel they made a great 1st round pickup as a stop gap that will move to the 6th man role once they find a superior PG.
What I’m saying is LEGIT STARTING PG’s are very hard to come by. IMO, Tyreke Evans and Teague are 0% capable of being a legit starting PG. Holiday is more of an unknown, and thus not worth the gamble. So with Jennings…maybe I’m being bias and just letting agents and columnists sway me…but I dont know, he seems like a more special talent. But at the very least, for me, Mayner HAS to be the choice over Teague because of his ability to run a team and distribute, as well as score.
But if I had the #18th pick as well, along with the #17? I’d absolutely pick a scorer/shooter like Teague or Ellington there.
Dave T., what is this, PTI? haha
Vince Carter to the Magic? Looks like it…
Just saw that Pete, it would be a great deal for the Nets. It’ll get them under the cap with the opportunity to be a player in the 2010 FA. A core of Harris, Lee and Lopez is very nice and maybe attractive enough to land LBJ in Brooklyn.
Stu: Goodnight Canada *waves Canadian flag*
Trade that looks 90% set to happen:
Magic get: Vince Carter
Nets get: Rafer Alston, Courtney Lee, Tony Battie
Great job by Otis Smith to capitolize on Courtney Lee’s rising stock after their playoff run…Vince Carter is one hell of an addition for them, even in the twilight of his career. Also erases any potential Nelson/Alston clashes at the PG position. Will be real curious if they resign Turkoglu now, or let him walk to go for a more classic PF like David Lee.
Crap, my bad Pete, didnt see you already posted it!
There is nothing more I want right now than a new 76ers Lawson jersey.
I thought for sure they would take Curry after Rubio, don’t really understand that pick
i thought for sure he was going to say Ty Lawson…relief
I have a feeling Minny and NYC have a trade in the works:
-Knicks get Rubio
-TWolves get David Lee ..theyd make it work somehow.
Also think G-Stage will trade Curry & Biedrins for Amare.
-PACERS TOOK HANSBROUGH OVER LAW SON, NICE!
I’m allowed to have my brain back for a couple of hours.
Hansbrough at #13? Good for him. Good for Indiana? Need some time to think about that. But I know they’ll really like him there.
Brandon Jennings is really dropping – Dannie, I’m with you, I’d be excited if we got him, too. I bet Witte and DiLeo have their fingers crossed.
“Pacers select Ty-”
NOOOOO!
“ler Hansbrough”
…uhh… YES!
Hmmm… thought about it – Hansbrough will really help with the rebounding. Jeff Foster and him would be a super-annoying frontcourt.
Oops, missed Milwaukee taking Jennings… D’oh…
Suns went Clark over Lawson…looks like we’re home free!
why aren’t you guys talking about Jrue Holiday?? Do you guys think we would take Lawson over Holiday??
Pete, if we take Holiday over ANYONE…as Bill Simmons says, I will put my head in an oven.
Ryan F: I’m with you, I want that Lawson jersey!
Wow, it could be a choice between Jrue Holiday and Ty Lawson. My brain says Lawson, my gut says Holiday. I don’t want Maynor, enough with the Who’s-that? players.
Bulls take Wayne Ellington.
Holliday, Lawson, Teague and Maynor? Too many options for the Sixers – who do they take?
Dumb pick by the Bulls, they really needed shooting. Ellington should’ve been the pick.
Fudge it, go for the guy who dropped – Jrue Holiday. Inject some intrigue into the Philadelphia Sixers story.
FUCK!
Holy crap!!!!
Congratulations Ed Stefanski, for !@#$ing our team. Mother @!#$er, I cant believe we didnt take Lawson. My @!#$ing god.
Dave T, go bite down on a belt or stick.
We can run Lou at shooting guard! Hallelujah! Holiday can guard the shooting guards. A fun season is coming up…
Dave T., relax dude. No way t
I might need to. This is a horrendous, horrendous selection that is going to bite us in the ass. I am stunned, and cannot even put words into how disappointed I am.
My couch is about to be destroyed by multiple punches…GRRRRR!!!
*No way that was a bad pick for the value at 17
terrible pick, this guy is all hype, but theres nothing behind the hype! Theres a reason he fell, why not take the proven Lawson.
Come on guys, give me some instant reactions! Are you hyped? Dannie, Pete, Ryan F?
My gut reaction is disappointment because I think Ty is going to be a star and I think Holiday will just be an okay player.
Andy Minny has three fucking point guards. What the fuck is going on today?
Wait… a trade coming up? Did the Sixers take Holiday knowing the twolves wanted him? So now the Sixers can get Lawson and someone else?
Damn, the Nuggets really wanted Lawson…
And we still have no shooting in the starting line up. I have no idea what the hell is going.
I am pissed right now Ty isn’t on the Sixers, but apparently he is going to Denver to learn from Chauncey Billups, he is going to be a freakin’ star. Great. Not happy at all.
Not only does Minnesota have three PG’s…they amusingly have THE BEST three poing guards in this draft. And apparently Lawson going to Denver, giving them a ridiculous backup to Chauncy.
Holiday is an unproven athlete that no one even knows if he can be a distributing PG. We may well have drafted a better incarnation of Lou Williams…an improved Lou WIlliams 2.0…to play WITH Lou Williams. The most DUMB, BACKWARD minded thinking I have EVER heard this year.
This destroys our future going forward. We had a chance at a proven, sure thing that would have been in the top 7 NBA PG’s for the next decade. Defensive beast, amazing in the open court…what the HELL is ES thinking?!?!
I am on the Ty Lawson bandwagon, too, but I think the Sixers got great value at their picks with Young and Speights in the past. Makes me feel a bit more confident about Holliday.
Buying up into late first/early second to take Ellington would be a nice consolation prize.
Enough with the “we got value at this pick” WHy does that matter? We need a guy that can come in play this year, this is fucking bullshit, Holliday got exposed everytime he came into the game last year, this was a bad pick period. The Sixers are by far the least popular team in Philadelphia, and this isnt gonna help
Zack I was hoping that as well if Ty dropped to like 22 with Portland we could give them Holiday and get Ty and one of their 2nd round picks.
I now need to convince myself Holiday will be good for us. He has talent I don’t deny that but I am not at all sold on him. One thing for sure we upgraded our back court defense and maintain good size. Right now that is the only positive thing I have right now.
Because offensively Holiday doesn’t add to the team in terms of shooting. I think his playmaking as a point guard is completely unproven and a question mark BUT I do believe he is a willing and potentially capable passer. Not sure he is a dynamic distributor. And his strength is something we already have all over the place in terms of driving the ball to the basket.
I need to do more research on him and watch some video and read to get myself fired up for this.
I was already prepared to buy my first Sixers jersey with Lawson on the back since my Iverson one.
Sigh
HOLIDAY?!?! Stefanski better have a damn good reason for that.
Dannie: You said it. Ty is a future star, and instead of addressing a PG need or getting 3 point shooting…we now have ANOTHER Lou Williams. This makes absolutely no sense.
I have not been this pissed since we passed over Pierce for Larry freaking Hughes. This is utterly shocking.
Greek…I fought you long and hard defending Stefanski to give him a chance as GM. Im done. I AM DONE. This move could have catapulted our future giving us Lawson, Thad, Iggy, Speights…we just took 8 steps back and are officially a midling team going no where.
Ed Stefanski…you suck.
Also, since Holiday is probably a couple years away from being a starter, how does that affect the Miller situation? My gut reaction is that he is probably more likely to return.
I knew it! Shoot, I should’ve predicted the Jazz taking Maynor. Great pick for Utah. Their second team is going to be really good.
How is this gonna help the Sixers next year? I want a logical response, because the answer is he wont. When are we planning on being truly competitive, Brand is getting older, what are doing? We are in a identity crisis period.
Dave, chill out – it’s not like Speights, your guy, lit the world on fire last year. He didn’t contribute at all during the playoffs, he’s totally invisible on defense. You hate Holiday, I actually take that as a good sign. Lou Williams – I’ll be cruel just this once – becomes retarded when he plays point guard. I would’ve been happy with Lawson – but this was a super-intriguing move by the Sixers. He won’t be the disaster Lou Williams was last year.
Chuck: Quick answer is that this does not help us in the slightest. It doesnt help our shooting, doesnt give us a future PG, and it gives us a guy that will take 3 years to even make a dent in the NBA. Holiday is not ready, unproven, shouldnt have come out, and we are banking solely on potential.
I love how Eddie Jordan said he didnt feel like weening young players in his system…so we go ahead and draft a total project that is more athlete than ball player. Un-fucking-believable. I feel personally slighted that I cannot buy a Ty Lawson Sixers jersey.
And Denver did EXACTLY what we should have done…Lawson plays under Chauncy for 2-3 years, then the reigns are his. Why we didnt do this with a resigned A-Miller is just nuts. Lawson is such a sure thing its not even funny. What a joke that we dont have him.
Just think defense, defense, defense guys. Running game. Another finisher. I gotta make myself like this…
B.J. Mullens/ Jrue Holliday - the reason I have these two guys together is because they are both incredibly overrated prospects who I wouldn’t touch with a ten foot poll. People claim that Jrue Holiday is a great defender… really? whenver I watch UCLA they got torched defensively especially Holiday. Just watch tape of the Nova UCLA game, that was laughable. Should I think its just a coincidence that the year this guy comes into become a freshmen for the Bruins Proud defense it becomes a lot worse? I understand they lost some players but this guy does nothing for me and everyone is buying into this fake hype. Chad Ford must be his agent because he has been talking him since the beginning of this process but has nothing to back it up with. As some point production has to become a little bit of a factor
This is what I said about Jrue Holiday two days ago, and im not changing my stance a little.
Here’s something Philly fans probably skipped because we weren’t in the lottery – Chad Ford talking about the enigma that is Jrue Holiday:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2009/columns/story?columnist=ford_chad&page=PreDraftTour-090518
So has Anquan Boldin gotten traded yet or what?
Some non-Dave T negative stuff on Jrue:
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-41-116/Minnesota-s-Massive-Point-Guard-Workout.html
Breaking news about why Holiday dropped:
Nice, I nailed the Beaubois pick in that slot in my mock draft I sent into Dannie and Pete.
Chuck: You and I see 100% eye to eye. Im unbending on this one as well. Ty Lawson is not just a lottery talent, but should be a top 5-10 talent. He’s the best open court PG in college basketball. We run an full court attack and needed that. He is the best defensive PG of this draft class in college basketball. We desperately needed a PG that is a very good defender. He is a freak speed wise and teaming him with Iggy, Thad and Speights would have just been an insane combination.
So given all that…of course we draft…a guy that played out of position last year, so no one knows what he can do at the PG spot on a high level…that SOMEtimes showed flashes of a nice game, but is a classic guy that, as Dick Vitale (who I usually cant stand) said: ”Averaged 8 points, 4 asists, and hasnt done anythig yet”. Why choose that over a PROVEN NATIONAL CHAMP winner…THE KEY COG that made that team win?
The ONE positive I see here is that Jrue is coachable, and as Dannie said, is (unlike Lou) a willing passer.
Not at all as hyped as I thought I’d be after the pick. I knew they would choose him once he slipped a bit. Agreeing with Dannie, his mold and his style of play isn’t needed here, we have plenty of slashers who play good D and don’t shoot very well. I would of much preferred the proven winner who can shoot the ball and doesnt turn it over.
I really felt that if Lawson was the pick, Miller was expendable, I feel that Lawson could of stepped right in and been a starter. This guy I’m not so sure, I don’t even think he was a starter in UCLA. We’ll see, he seemed pretty mature in his interview, only time will tell I guess. Chad Ford says it was a great pick, hope hes right.
Dannie, I was in your position last year with the Speights drafting.
I like his name, I’ll probably still pick up the jersey. Hopefully I dont look like a fool wearing it.
Ok Stefanski, make a trade to put yourself into position to get Ellington or Danny Green. I’ll sit through the boring-ass second recond in full anticipation of more wheeling and dealing.
Well, don’t know much about Holiday, and Lawson sure seems like the real deal. About the best thing I can find in his favor is that directly preceding him as Gatorade high school player of the year were Kevin Love, Greg Oden, Dwight Howard and LeBron James.
Zack – I am coming around. I will give anyone a chance. I just hope this doesn’t blow up in our face. And what will be worse, if the three other guys Teague, Maynor and Lawson all turn out to be really good (especially Maynor and Lawson playing on good teams, with good coaches and great point guards to learn from).
I will come around on Holiday in a bit after I do my homework and watch some video. I seen him play live in that UCLA vs. VCU NCAA tournament game and he had 13 points and 6 assist and was ok. But he just can’t shoot at all right now, so he will need to make a huge impact on the defensive end right away.
I’m not mad at the pick. He was supposed to be a lottery pick, and if he can improve his shooting then were good to go for the future.
AI9 had a hand in this pick. check out his twitter page..
http://twitter.com/AI9
Can anyone think of player that Jrue Holiday could be? I’m drawing a blank… nbadraft.net mentioned Delonte West and… (shuddering) Flip Murray.
“Him” being Holiday.
And there Ellington goes.
Russell Westbrook – Also from UCLA
cwither, can he be Wade?
shit shit shit!!! damn, the Sixers could’ve gotten Ellington in some way, damn screw dog poop
Zack: I’m curious as to how you’re disappointed with Speights? That year he, Hickson and Arthur were the three legit options…at Florida he proved he was athletic, could hit a midrange shot, had a few back to the basket moves, and looked like a steal at #16.
I’d say his rookie year proved nothing but that. The kid is 20 years old, has a lot of talent, and a legit 6’10 that can hopefully keep improving so that we have a good PF by the time Brand’s contract runs out. The majority of NBA scouts and GMs feel Speights, like Young, was a great pickup for us where we drafted. His defense isnt there yet, and he can be a little hyper, but he’s real young, real talented, skilled, and big. Usually gave a nice scoring boost in the reg. season when we’d sub him in…I see nothing but good there.
T-Wolves just picked up Wayne Ellington, my god, they have the Sixers dream young backcourt with Flynn/Ellington.
There are some interesting: Nick Calathes, Chase Budinger, Patty Mills
zack i don’t to much about him personally but i imagine AI9 would know.
Build wise i could see it. 6’4 199. i’ll take it.
Budinger – NEVER. He is a flat out punk ass basketball player who will never reach his potential.
Absolutely not, Iguodala is WAY out of line with the D Wade comparison. He is just hyping up his new teammate. Sixers PR.
and does this pick set the stage for a Miller return?
Agree Dannie, about Iggy’s post on twitter. He’d say that about whoever we drafted. And, he’s also wrong about D-Wade…a lot of people were aware of how good he was before his breakout junior year.
Lakers made a great pickup with Tony Douglas.
If we can swing a 2nd round pick and nab Meeks or Christmas, I might not want to bash Stefanski so much for the rest of the night.
Dave T, he totally disappears on defense. I can’t believe how much of a non-factor he is on defense. I gave him a whole year to show just a little improvement, but nada.
Christmas can probably be had undrafted. Don’t want meeks. Give me Danny Green. I want more versatile players not one-dimensional players.
Dannie - that was hilarous enough to convince me to be anti-Budinger.
@Dave T: Speights is also a little soft. Jason Smith is tougher.
Speights upside? Joe Smith, maybe.
Dannie: I definitely think Christmas will be gone by #45, I cant see him going undrafted. He certainly made people aware of him during all his workouts. Danny Green would also be a great pickup, but I’d rather take Sam Young over him if I had the choice. Both would be nice though, along with Christmas.
I think you’re selling Budinger a LITTLE short there…he can be a puss sometimes, but his IQ amazing, he knows the game, and has improved every year. He’d make a nice role player and 2nd round pick. I see him as a Korver/Kapono that has very good passing ability, moves better without the ball, and has better handle.
Zack: I feel you with Speights, but the defense can hopefully come with time. Remember he’s only 20, a rookie, and still very undisciplined. His positives far outweight his negatives right now, and most young players take a good 2-3 years to develop before we really start seeing them blossom.
Ed Stefanski was on record saying he wasn’t willing to trade Speights to move up. Why? Speights for me is a nice young player, but he still needs to reach his potential he isn’t at the point where I wouldn’t move him for Steph Curry.
Since we just drafted a Lou Williams clone, can we not trade the Stink Bomb Lou for something? Some way some how get Danny Green or Calathes? I sure as hell hope so.
I stand hard on Budinger. He is a punk ass basketball player with no heart. Besides that we have Kapono a better shooter with the same type of game.
But I repeat, Budinger is a punk with no heart who doesn’t compete when faced with tough competition or adversity. Big reason he is dropping is because he showed that in most of his workouts. For example…
Dave T, I’ll give you this with Speights – I wish the Sixers would give him a chance on offense – take away the shots of some other guys and give him around ~5 power forward shot attempts per game. I believe you when you say he’s got amazing post moves, but goddamn DiLeo and Cheeks, he’s the best post player they’ve got, so they go and diagram clumsy baby hooks for Sammy D.
And Dannie, I would have moved up for Curry any day if possible. A major hole in our team is shooting. Curry fixes that. Another hole will be the PG position if Miller doesn’t resign. Curry fixes that.
guest, I actually wanna give Lou Williams a chance in Eddie Jordan’s system.
Holiday is the best Bruin drafted since Jerome Moiso.
Explain to me why we have NO picks and everyone else has multiples, yet our team is still mediocre at best. Doesn’t make sense to me at all. All the bad teams have a ton of picks, we have 1.
We have middling draft picks and only one. Sixers drafts suck.
It’s funny. Everyone seemed to be in agreement that Lawson was the choice if available.
As far as I’m concerned, we haven’t improved our team in the slightest today. That’s why I try and trade Lou, Zack. With a trade for Danny Green, we at least improve defensively. And who knows maybe Green develops a consistent 3 point shot. Ending the draft with no improvement is unacceptable and that’s what it’s looking like right now.
And it’s still not a guarantee that we have Miller back.
Haha Stu, nice call man.
Dannie…it is definitely mystifying that half the teams in the NBA are able to pick up extra 1st and 2nd round picks with ease…by basically trading cash or future draft picks, or mediocre talent…to land legit players…ad we never have extras. There are a good 5-7 players later in this draft that would have legitimately given us extra fire power…why we continue to sit back and take non-action makes no sense.
We don’t have to trade Lou for Danny Green. We can buy Danny Green for cash up to $3M. That money doesn’t count against the cap.
Also Danny Green was ranked as the 8th best player in the draft by Hollinger’s Draft rater and one of his three sleepers. Historically Hollinger’s system is pretty damn good at getting things like that right. Just like he had Ty Lawson as the best overall player as well.
i really like DeJuan Blair, any chance we’ll still end up with him, do we need him? i heard they’re shoppping Brand what value would he have in this economy
We don’t need Blair and no we won’t end up with him. Since San Antonio traded Kurt Thomas and Oberto (who may end up back in SA after he is bought out by Detroit) so the Spurs are a little thin in the front court, Blair is a complete steal for them.
Well, Cleveland just got their Pavlovic replacement in the underrated Danny Green. UNC cranks out versatile, multiskilled SF’s on a regular basis…torch that has been passed down since Okalija in the mid 90s. Green, and Xavier’s Brown, I think could both be great fits on their respective teams.
Did ya’ll see who the viewers of the draft picked the sixers as getting the biggest steal of the 1st round, 53%, over 2 to 1! Just maybe, we just don’t get it??? I don’t know enough to criticize anyone that does not like this pick but maybe we did get a great pick? Most think so in the country!
Dionte Christmas undrafted. Bring him into camp. Holiday and Christmas. They planned it all along.
Down the road this could prove to be a home run pick. we just won’t know for 2-3 years. Best case, this was a very Thad Young type pick. A chance for a star, who disapointed some in his Freshman year after being a top HS prospect. Pro body, good BB IQ. Willing defender. We’ll just have to wait and see how it pans out.
Of all of the other players available at #17, Lawson was the only other guy I would have considered. But I won’t fault them for swinging for the fences. I do not see Lawson as a future top 7 PG, bu he has a great chance to be a top 15PG. Holiday could have more upside, but obviously helps less now, and is a riskier pick.
But we are taking the #17 pick. They are not a player away from contention. Its a good spot to take a risk and swing for the fences.
Christmas Holiday would definitely bring some unintentional comedy to our team. I really hope we bring him into camp Bubba. Most NBA teams invite undrafted local college guys to throw local coaches a bone…in this case, Christmas actually has legit talent, and would fill a need for us, so it would be great to have him.
are you people serious? Good Lord. Enough with the Ty Lawson worshipping. you act like we just passed up chris paul. the guy is 5’10”, a liability on defense, and cant stay healthy through a 40-game college season. nobody knows how any of these players so stop talking like you’re all never-miss experts.
Tk76, you hit the nail on the head, they went for the homerun, and I can!t fault them for that. DaveT., none of us can predict what he will or will not be, but after Thad and Spieghts I hope our scouts got it right again.Dannie, Lawson found a good home and Minn., I!m still scratchin my head but they got their shooter[Ellington] so it makes a little more sense. If Holliday becomes a star we will look back on this night and lift a cold one because we have said all along, that is what this team needs.
Sixers were interested in Meeks, Thornton and Taylor in second round, but weren’t willing to pay the price for one of the picks.
Tom: Any idea whether “price” means straight cash, a future pick, or parting with a role player?
For a second rounder? I’m guessing the cash. Maybe they have some bigger plans? I don’t know. You guys don’t understand how much I wanted a Lawson jersey…
Price was mostly like cold hard cash or a future 2nd round pick. Not sure where the Sixers’ cheapness is coming from. It is not like Comcast is losing money or something. They better make a splash through a trade or something, because the team is on the brink of becoming VERY irrelevant in Philadelphia.
I think we’re already irrelevant even with the way the Phillies are playing. If they don’t sign Miller we have a big problem. My only hope is that they will sign Christmas or Green as free agents. We certainly could have gotten Crawford for that trash Atlanta gave Golden State! It’s a shame that Billy Queen has stuck us with these bad contracts.
Brendan – Cool out dude. You aren’t an expert either so keep your opinion strictly on whether or not YOU think it was a good move or not and allow other ppl to share theirs however they like.
And to be clear Lawson is 6-foot, not a liability on defense (certainly no worse than Lou or Miller) and was good and healthy enough to be ACC player of the year and lead a team to a National Championship.
Holiday did what exactly? Grow taller. Good for him. Hopefully he reaches his potential (whatever that is, no one is exactly clear on it) but history says that is unlikely.
Warren – I feel you on the jersey I was all over the new-old logo with Lawson on the back.
Will give Holiday a chance – of course.
Giving Holiday a “chance” will require some patience. I think his natural skills and size will allow him to contribute some this year- but you won’t be able to really judge this pick for 2 years (he turned 19 2 weeks ago.) If you think we needed someone who is ready much sooner then the Sixers did fail in that regard. They will have to get a temprorary PG answer through FA.
To my eye, they took a reasonable risk that worst case gets you a solid role player worthy of pick #17 but has a great chance of yielding a star.
A Thad Young pick on many levels.
Call me crazy, but I like the pick. Right after the Bulls picked Johnson, I looked “Bilas’ Best Remaining” and said to myself, I’m cool with either Holiday or Lawson at #17. I know there are some question marks about Holiday, but I think the Sixers took the safe approach with the top rated player. Overall, Holiday was ranked much higher than Lawson by the scouts, national media and in blogs. I’m not saying Lawson won’t be good, but Holiday has some upside.
p.s. – I’m glad the Sixers didn’t take B.J. Mullens –Shawn Bradley part 2.
Has there been any immediate word on the status of Christmas’ destination as a UDFA?
I personally am a bit shocked, yet potentially excited that the Sixers picked Jrue Holiday. Maybe UCLA will be our farm for the next couple of years and fit Eddie Jordan’s system well. This guy is like Royal Ivey & Reggie Evans mashed into one player, but with a better offensive game. I am impressed with the way he speaks, which shows professionalism and potential (ala Thad).
Also, perhaps we could get Reggie Miller as a shooting coach if we get more UCLA guys! He might start showing some more love for the Sixers.
Who knows, the Sixers might “moonwalk” their way through their PG situation with potential, but they need to resign Andre Miller or sign Mike Bibby.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fMf_FcU9eY
GO SIXERS!!
By the way, that blue background looks GREAT with the old/new Sixers logo! Press Conference at 1PM TODAY!!
The Royal Ivey references are way of. We are talking about a kid with superstar PG potential. Not saying he will reach it, but many have put his upside as top 5 in the draft. He just turned 19 and lacks polish, but he does not project to be a limited player down the road.
He is young for his college class and will have a limited impact in the next 1-2 years. Think of it as drafting a stud HS prospect.
So apparently Ty Lawson is Isiah Thomas all of a sudden. Is it a coincidence that nobody else picked him till 18??? Thought so. He also got traded to the Nuggets for a first round pick next year which will be in the high 20′s!!! Does that show you what his value is. Thanks. Have a great day. You guys have no clue. Name the last 4 Highschool players of the year. Pretty good company. …..Dont waste my time.
Dannie –
1) I never called myself an expert. I simply stated for everyone else to stop acting like experts with the ty lawson worship
2) I never once mentioned lou williams or andre miller in comparing lawson defensively
3) I didnt say a word about holliday. Re-read my post.
Lawson is 6’0 like iverson is 6’0 right? If you believe that, i have some beachfront property id like to sell you in nebraska. (by the way, nba.com has him listed at 5’11, but Dannie apparently has better sources than them)
Laslty, short point guards never get abused defensively in this league. You’re right, what am i thinking??? Wasnt nate robinson actually defensive player the year last year?
Hmmm I’m not sure how to respond to the person above me… I’m assuming he is the same person as Brenden? Dannie and Pete can probably tell.
Well Mr. Ed Stefanski,
I’ll just basically repeat what Dannie said (considering he was right). Ty Lawson is certainly no liability on defense. You obviously don’t want UNC at all if you think that. You obviously didn’t watch the NBA Draft Preview Wednesday night on ESPN when many of the analysts (the experts as you mentioned) said Ty Lawson was the best PG in the draft coming into the NBA. Not the most potential, but the most ready to win now. And if you don’t think Ty Lawson would have succeeded in our system than you are a moron. Ty was the best in the nation at running the fast break system and is the fastest PG in the nation. That should tell us what his value is.
And you are talking about Ty Lawson dropping???? What the hell?
Dude, Ty Lawson was projected to go to us in A LOT of Mock Drafts (from the experts) and if he was going to go before us it would have been at 13. Not too far up from 17 is it?
Meanwhile your boy Jrue Holiday was projected to be a lottery pick. Is it coincidence that nobody picked him until 17??? Does that show his value? Sounds like you are the one with no clue, but like Dannie said… It’s not right to sit here and criticize other people’s opinions. It is going to be a great day…
My fault Brendan, I thought you were the same person as the dude above you. Sorry.
The Real GM – Actually the pick Denver traded to Minny for Lawson was the Charlotte Bobcat’s pick – meaning it’s a potential (likely) lottery pick. Just so you know.
Brendan – Ty is 6’0.5 in shoes. Last I checked all players play in sneakers so that’s his playing height. My source are official measurements from the draft combine.
No one said you were an expert, we know you aren’t. What I said was let other people have their own opinion as fans. If people want to be pissed let them be pissed. If they want to be in favor of Lawson let them be in favor of Lawson. It’s their prerogative, not yours. If you have something (productive) to say in favor of Holiday then say it. But don’t come at other people for their personal appreciation for a player as fans.
I never said you mentioned Lou Williams or Andre Miller, I did.
And I don’t like the beach, save your smart ass comments for another blog.
OOOHHHHHHH ok ok ok. I just read dannies profile. I didnt realize that 1) you have a hard-on for UNC hoops and 2) this website shot their load on ty lawson before the draft. Makes sense now. Forgive me for trying to be objective.
Who is Guest? Why wont you put a name in? Until you have the balls to do so, you’re worthless.
Anyway, Im assuming that UNC SUPERFAN also loved hasbrough at 13 right?
Lastly UNC SUPERFAN, when you write to me ”Holiday did what exactly? Grow taller. Good for him”…you leave yourself open for smart ass comments in return. if you cant take it then stop blogging.
Dannie, I was thinking about this last night… Would you say the Holiday’s “ceiling” is definitely higher than Lawson’s ceiling?
Because I think we are all in agreement that Holiday will need a couple years before he is ready to be a starter. So that must set the stage for a signing of Miller right? E.S. isn’t stupid enough to enter next season with Lou starting is he? Someone mentioned Bibby before, but I think I’ll take Miller over Bibby just because he’s been with the team and knows the guys.
Brendon, Like I said before. I wasn’t responding to your comment. I want no part of talking junk on a blog. It’s not what I do in my free time. Sorry if that’s a habit for you. But if you must know my name is Tanner. I’m not sure why you wanted to know that.
Brendan – Wrong again. Looks like this will be a theme with you, which is fine.
No Hansbrough at 13 I wouldn’t have done. He will be okay in the league.
The comment about Holiday growing was in reference to what has he done as a player. It wasn’t directed at you personally that’s the distinction you have yet to figure out as evidenced by this comment: “Lawson is 6?0 like iverson is 6?0 right? If you believe that, i have some beachfront property id like to sell you in nebraska.” If you don’t figure out the distinction you should not waste your time typing because chances are yoru comments probably will stop showing up if you get my drift.
And about being objective. What have you said of any substance? Where is your objective argument for anything? What is your beef with Lawson based on? What is your argument for Holiday? You haven’t said a thing except direct your comments at the other commentors opinions.
BREAKING NEWS!!!!!!!!!! Ty Lawson to play in stiletto high heals next year, now listed at 6’5”!
Uh oh. looks like im going to get banned. (and yes, i get your drift).
ATTN Recliner GM participants: Agree with Dannie and kiss his a$$ or get BANNED!
Ha ha, this dude Brendan is a clown. Lawson is proven and fits perfect with the Sixers offense. Holiday on the other hand is an unknown and was drafted based on potential alone, which by the way rarely pans out.
You’re talking a lot about other peoples opinions but aren’t making any of your own. That’s typical of someone who doesn’t know anything about what they’re saying, so your comments are worth about as much as that beach house you have in Nebraska.
….Sounds like the Recliner GM has a hater.
Brendan – You don’t have to tell ppl that. They’ve been here, for a long time. You are the new dude with nothing to say that is beginning to look foolish with the childish comments. Are you a Sixers fan? What do you have to say about the Sixers.
But like I said you keep coming at me personally (the other dude who had something to say about the spelling of my name – really?) and yea your ass will get banned. I don’t have time, energy or the desire to deal with that.
You got something to talk about regarding philly sports let’s talk. You don’t have to like me or agree with me to comment. Dave T and I go at it all the time. Zack as well. Everyone here knows that, apparently you don’t.
I actually think Bibby would be a better fit next year. he may not know his teammates as well- but he could help everyone adjust to the Princeton offense. Plus having a shooter next to Iguodala and Thad will help.
Either way, I agree we need a stop-gap PG to maximize what Brand/Iguodala/Thad can accomplish in the next 2 years. Not saying they can contend, but they could be a good team. Hopefully even better in 3-4 years when Thad, Holiday, Iguodala and Speights (and maybe Lou) are all in their prime.
This is my FA/trade realistic wish list:
In order of preference:
G:
Bibby (2-3 yr, but he will want longer)
Sessions-Can play next to Jrue and potential near star
Jack (Can play next to Jrue and Lou) good role player
Blake+Outlaw (If given in a Miller S+T were they take back Gree (pipe dream)
Miller (2 yr)
G/F:
Carney for cheap
C:
Gortat (If they move Sam)
Sheed 2 yr (If they move Sam)
BTW, the Blake/Outlaw S&T for Miller was included because SF1976 mentioned it has been discussed. Basically Portland would like to get Miler without using all their cap space.
Personally I doubt Portland considers that deal. More likely they would offer Blake + trade exemption (effectively cap relief) so they can save 4M of cap space when they add Miller. Likely the Sixers turn this down if they can get a better PG for the MLE.
tk76, I agree with that. I wouldn’t be complaining at all if the got Bibby. I guess it depends on what we are looking for. Miller I think gives you things that Bibby doesn’t and Bibby gives you things that Miller doesn’t. Bibby’s 3 point shooting would definitely help and he is used to running a fast paced system in Atlanta.
BTW, this is the quote from SF1976 this AM:
“Portland wants to sign and trade for Miller AND sign Hedo.
“They offered us verbally Blake and Outlaw….and maybe some sort of future pick…the pick part isnt clear. We said we would get back to them if our sit down with Andre Miller and his agent doesnt go well on Wednesday.
“We also would want to see what other sign and trades scenarios were out there.
“Miller wants 3 years and 9-10 mill. We will only go two years….and not sure we want to spend more than 7-8. So unless progress is made there…its sign and trade OR let him walk(where he wont get alot of
money) and then sign someone with MLE.”
I have no idea how credible this is, but sounds like a decent return if it plays out. Outlaw would not star, but would be a great fit backing up Iguodala/Thad (who can get some minutes at PF and SG to free up time for Outlaw.) Blake is a serviceable stopgap at PG who can shoot.
Oh my God you people are so sensitive. Take a breath. I find this website for the first time last night and come in to see a group sixers bash about how everyone in the organization sucks. call me a “hater” mike d, but thats exactly what i saw from everyone on here last night.
I am a sixers fan dannie - 10 game season ticket package and try to watch the rest on tv. id love to have made some sixers points but, like i keep saying, i noticed quickly that that wasnt happening here, so i made my feelings known.
and dannie keeps talking tough with me “your ass will get banned” and then the next breath chides me for not being polite. amazing. i try to find some good objective sixers talk and instead stumble across a collective bash of people who cant take criticism or dumb jokes.
As for holliday, we’re talking about someone with the pedigree of a HS POY and 6’4” frame who played at a high level for a freshman CONSIDERING he was playing out of position, playing 2nd fiddle to collison, and for a coach who micromanages his guards so closely they wont sneeze without asking him permission. Give him a chance and stop bashing the hell out of the organization just because you wanted lawson.
We should invite Dionte Christmas for the Summer League and for Training Camp. How great would it be to have Holiday and Christmas in the same sentence?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbRdHXt3LTI
Also, bring back “Big Shot”.
Michael Jackson, RIP!
GO SIXERS!!
Stefanski drafting Jrue makes me think Miller is coming back. What teams could he really go to? I’m assuming that he doesn’t sign with a real contender for the midlevel. What team can/would offer him more money than us? The only team I know off the top of my head that is under the cap is Detriot but they have Stuckey and would be better off throwing $$ at Boozer.
Can anyone think of a team that would spend more than the midlevel on Miller?
If nobody is interested we would be in a bidding war with ourselves and can offer him 7-8 mil per year. If he has no other options….
I like the Jrue pick IF we get Miller back. He should be able to step in as a good defender right away if what everybody says is true. (haven’t seen him play enough) Miller got abused on the defensive end last year. If we need a stop we could put Jrue in to actually keep his man in front of him.
For the record I would have been fine with either Jrue or Lawson.
Brendan – Trust me I wasn’t talking tough to you. I don’t talk tough on the internet. And as the blog’s co-owner it’s my place to make sure things stay on track. I said stop personally attacking people, you apparently still aren’t understanding that and I don’t know how else to say it. You aren’t the first and won’t be the last either. You can have objective arguments without coming at people. There’s no reason to “criticize” an individual that’s the point. There is a difference. Hopefully you get that at some point.
Regarding Holiday it’s a matter of choice. A lot of ppl wanted Lawson whose pedigree is just as good if not better (acc player of year for a big time program, 2nd best high school player at the point and 9th best player in a loaded high school class headlined by Oden and Durant), what I think you are missing in pointless side debate is the fact that no one said they wouldn’t give Holiday a chance or not support him as a Sixer. To the contrary actually. At least in all my comments personally.
Brendan – Hi. Thanks for visiting. It’s our pleasure to have you here, apparently.
What you are doing right now is akin to walking into a board meeting on your first day at new company and telling everyone in the meeting how to run their business.
You may very well have some good points, but no one knows who you are, and everyone loses respect for you immediately given the manner in which you have chosen to make your points.
We have a very tight knit group of intelligent readers, and if you don’t make your points respectfully and with back-up statistics or facts (i.e., not ‘are you people serious? good lord’) or you flat out contradict yourself (“no one knows how these players are going to do” “except me, I know Ty Lawson is gonna suck”) you won’t last long.
It’s OK, we will miss you, just as we miss the guy who, in the same tone you have chosen, called me a total idiot for picking the Phillies, not the Braves, to win the NL East in 2008.
TK76 – I’d take the Portland trade rather than letting Miller walk. But I really hope they don’t succumb and give him 3 years or $9-10M. 2 years, $7M I can deal with. Doesn’t make us a contender but it keeps them in the playoffs for a couple more years for experience for the young guys.
What about just tossing Holiday into the fire and starting him at point and letting him learn on the job? Hurt or expedite his development?
I will say this I don’t want him playing much, if at all off the ball. I think that would only serve to stunt/mess up his development if we are hoping he is the point guard of the future for us.
As much as I liked the idea of Lawson (and I was surprised to find the guys here felt the same) I’m holding judgment until I can see him in action. I hate to see us draft on potential but if Holiday’s ceiling is really higher than Lawson’s (which seems to be the consensus) then I think I’ll be okay with it. Eventually. And Thad and Speights were drafted on their potential and that worked out pretty good.
tk76 – I like that scenario, a lot. I think even if Miller walks he can get what he wants from whoever will give it. He ran this team last year. Period. He deserves it.
I don’t think we throw him into a starting role right away. We still have a lot of question marks regarding our team. We have a new coach in a highly detailed system. We have EB coming back and no one knows how that is going to turn out. If we have the start we did last year with Brand (13-16 with Brand) AND we are starting a rookie PG than I think we will start off the year terrible. I guess it all depends on how much better we are with Elton in Jordan’s system. If Eddie Jordan can incorporate EB into our offense while maintaining the level of play of Young and Iguodala than I give Holiday a chance to start. But just think what a disaster it would be if we start slow with Brand, and we don’t have Miller/veteran PG running the show. I don’t like that situation even if it speeds up the growth of Holiday a little bit.
bball — I agree that this probably means Miller is coming back. To me, that leaves this team stuck in the 42-47 wins doldrums for the next couple of years.
That said, I think the Holiday pick is intriguing. It was a higher risk/higher-reward pick. Lawson would have been great, and he was my choice, but I am intrigued with Holiday’s potential down the road, and I like that he’s being talked about as a good defender.
Rounding out the off-season, it seems like our biggest chips are a potential S&T with Miller (though now less likely), and the MLE. ES has a lot of work to do.
Holiday’s “ceiling”:
Here’s my problem with people that are excited about Holiday and think this is a good pick. There is a wide spectrum of ability when we talk about a player’s “ceiling” and potential. Many here have compared the Holiday pick to a Thad Young, another one and done, and Speights youth, as well as the multiple high school stars to leave early.
My thing is: what are you guys basing his ceiling on? IMO, even with more of an “unknown” like Holiday, by watching regular season games of their college career you can get at LEAST a little bit of an accurate gauge on what they might do in the pros. I feel like many people here are tossing words like “amazing potential” and “huge ceiling” and “future star”…without actually having seen him play much at UCLA.
The years G-Tech had Bosh followed by Anthony Morrow, Thad Young and Crittenton, I happened to have watched a lot of their games. Thad Young put up, off the top of my head, about a 14 pts 6 rbd average. Lots of players can do that. But it was the WAY he did it, and the type of flashes he showed, that made people say “wow, this guy could be really good.” He SHOWED off the excellent southpaw post move at G-Tech we still see today. He SHOWED the ability to hit the midrange jumper. He SHOWED the ability to use his muscular physique both with his back to the basket, and facing up. Point: his stats solid but not overwhelming, but you could plainly see the kid had great talent.
Whereas, and obviously this is just my opinion, in WATCHING UCLA games, I do not feel Holiday showed the same type of flashes that Thad Young, and many other one-done-ers did. Not in the slightest. What I’ve seen of Holiday, just on my observation of Pac-10 games, is the following:
-Great athlete
-Good defensive player
-Excellent slasher
-Streaky shooter
-A guy that makes good decisions when dribbling into traffic
-Can lead a fast break
-Makes good, strong cuts and comes off picks well
-Overdribbles
-Huge inconsistency game to game
-No one overwhelming specialized skill that wowed me
-A guy that did not seem comfortable running the offense when Collison was sitting.
-Willing passer, but not certainly not someone blowing me away with his eye for the court.
-A guy that in NO WAY showed ability to take over games
-A player that made me genuinely think: “This is a top 5 rated high school basketball player? Hmm…seems more athlete and slasher then true basketball stud…”
Basically he seemed to be like a classic combo guard, that I could not envision wreaking havoc on the court. I just didnt see it. Yeah, he has nice height, athleticism, and his D is good…but people, its basketball. EVERYONE has anywhere from good to great athleticism. Its the ability to play and understand the game that matters.
From what I can tell, Holiday is certainly a nice talent and im sure he will develop into a fine player…but Im going to go on record saying we we just drafted a better, more efficient version of Lou Williams. IMO, not exactly what we need, given:
-We already have Lou Williams
-We desperately needed an older, TRUE, proven PG
-We needed someone whose shot is already there
-Needed a guy thats a great decision maker and excels in open and half court basketball.
Holiday has shown NONE of those things. Lawson most definitely has. So I ask the Holiday supporters…why are you high on him? Because columnists said so? Agents? GMs? How many times are they wrong and do they screw up (just like we fans do). I’d implore people to not throw the “OMG his ceiling is so high!” quotes that can’t back this up with evidence.
And to Jrue: Damn man, Im a Sixers die hard. So I hope you DO make me eat my words.
I’m not sold on the pick either but have to give it a chance as a Sixers fan. I am reluctant to completely bash Stefanski and company after the past two drafts have yielded solid players (Young, Smith, Speights). I was certainly hoping for Lawson but the draft is never certain for any player. So let’s just hope that Holiday turns out to be the steal of the draft and develops into a fine point guard and leader of the Sixers. I wouldn’t be completely opposed to throwing him right into the fire and starting him right away although it sounds like that is not how they plan to use him. We have such a young team that I think he could feel comfortable there as opposed to becoming the starter on a team filled with veterans. I think that was part of the reason that Rose was so successful in Chicago this year (that and his immense talent obviously). But I think that for a young point guard who is expected to be the leader, it is easier to take over a young, rebuilding team than a team of veterans, one piece away from a championship.
I wanted Julian Wright over Thad Young
I wanted JJ Hickson over Mo Speights
So the fact that I wanted Ty Lawson over Jrue Holiday is probably a good thing for the Sixers.
I am trying to figure out what this pick says about the Sixers future. If we are going to draft a project, why did we sign Brand last year? Or is this already saying that was a mistake. We will draft the player with the highest ceiling and let all our players develop together so that 3-4 years from now, we are dominant. I don’t even see how Iggy fits into this, considering he’s already signed a big time extension. Obviously the Sixers aren’t in a “win now” mode just yet, but they should be there in a year or two. And with the PG situation in flux, you would have thought a more established PG who could contribute now would be the better pick. Sometimes it may be best to do what OKC did and pick the best player for your team, not the best player available. Best player available doesn’t always work in a sport full of 12 men rosters and where an individual’s statisitics don’t always translate into wins.
I am all for giving Holiday a chance. I will not bash the pick. I just don’t think it was the right pick for this Sixers team. He may have a high ceiling, but what is that based on? Yeah so he was the National High School Player of the Year. High school competition isn’t the same as the competition in the NCAA. That’s one of the reasons the NBA added the age limit – to give GMs another year to scout players so that the players with true NBA potential get drafted. I’m not saying Holiday doesn’t have high potential, only that basing that off his high school career is misguided. I just hope he hits the gym and gets working on that jump shot.
Brand is the player on the Sixers that throws a wrench into their gears. I wouldn’t mind them letting Jrue learn the NBA by starting – trial by fire. It would be promising to have him, AI9, Thad and Speights grow together – finish in the lottery and keep adding young players. But how can they do this with Brand on the team? Are they supposed to win now or later? Or neither…. If they are trying to win now Lawson would be the better pick. Now even with Miller back we still only have 1 legit 3pt shooter and a few half decent ones which doesn’t sound promising in the Princton offense. Can we really compete with the elite teams, most of whom improved themselves with trades. Maybe this pick means the Sixers are commited to building with the young guys and will look to move Brand and Dalembert in the next year or so.
I guess I took the long way of saying: What is their plan? We’re stuck in the 40 win area with little chance of going deep in the playoffs and little chance of dramatically improving.
Pete - regarding your comment: ” flat out contradict yourself (”no one knows how these players are going to do” “except me, I know Ty Lawson is gonna suck”) ”
why quote me on something i never said? i pointed out his downsides trying to justify why everyone shouldnt be so angry at the pick.
clearly i made a mistake in my approach – granted. i rarely, if ever, post on message boards. obviously my ettiquete on message boards sucks. im used to talking tons of sh*t with my friends, didnt think this would be any different. im shocked at the reaction i recieved. call me naive, fine. trust me, i have thick skin and can take it. i was expecting to get into a good back and fourth sh*t talking, but expected wrong. again, new to message boards. i was excited about the pick last night, looked for a local sixers site, found this site….stunned at the sixers trashing over a player like lawson
lastly, i loved lawson. developed a serious man-crush on him this season, just thought the overall reaction on this board was insane. everyone in the organization sucked was the general point of the posts i read.
again, all of my wiseass remarks were meant to be in good fun, obviously i miscalculated. so for that, i apologize.
one other thing pete. i understand you’re analogy about what i did was like walking into a board room on the first day…i didnt realize how close-knit the posters were. i assumed it was just general public and nobody really knew eachother.
Brendan: The reason Dannie and Pete’s forum here at Recliner is great…is because its specifically not “shit talking”. Most of the people here are real intelligent, know their sports, and share their opinions while backing it up with tangible evidence. The people on here that come out full guns blazed just blasting people in anger tend to get shredded pretty quickly.
And what you are saying about people making fun of the organization…realize that a lot of people on here (myself included) have been sharing opinions for two years running, and that there is a natural ebb and flow to our arguments. Weve battled, debated, supported and argued against each other a zillion times over every possible nuance of the Sixers out there. Weve bitched about the same things, and found joy over the same things about the Sixers…and it seems that after a lot of talking, many people here (myself DEFINITELY included) felt Ty Lawson was the way to go, and had our hearts set on him.
A lot of what you saw was gut reaction anger and disappointment over what many of us felt should have been a sure fire, automatic pick. Check out some of the naysayer posts about Holiday above that are spelled out with more then just “fuck the organization”.
And, for the record, just because a guy goes to UNC doesnt mean he’s clouded by a bias that doesnt mean he still cant see objectively. Lawson would be a great fit here, for the reasons weve all listed numerous times.
One bone I would pick with you is…why would you slam Lawson’s defense? His on ball defense is shockingly good. He has LOCKED DOWN opposition PGs all year on UNC, and is an elite defender on the college level.
I also feel make too big a deal about the height. Lawson is 6’0. Most PG’s are 6’0 – 6’2. It is rare for PG’s to have that crazy Magic Johnson height at 6’6. Now if you can get a Kidd, Chauncy, or Payton that is in that 6’3 range, great! But just because Holiday is tall and athletic does not mean he has “huge potential”. One other poster said it best…just because he was an all american high school player doesnt mean he’s destined to pan out in the NBA or even college level. My personal opininon is that Holiday didnt show the necessary flashes of “high ceiling” last year at UCLA to justify picking him over what I would call one of the top 3-4 PGs in the draft (Rubio, Flynn, Lawson, S Curry, in random order).
Dave T – understood. i did come in talking shit and did not know the scope of the website. again, i apologize and any grief or shit i take over this will be well desvered.
as to your point about lawson. i agree – to a point. again, i loved him this year. ill say two things about him. first – his height. i dont buy that he is 6’0”. im going on the eye test here. yes, i know thats as un-scientific as it gets, but the guy just flat out looks small too me. second, while he was a great all around player in college, i just dont see him being able to handle the bigger guards in the nba. granted, he may get you a few iverson-esque steals a game (meaning he may gamble a few other times and miss, thus giving the opposition a golden opportunity).
one more point to explain why i came in acting the way i did. i read the papers, and tend to read comments below articles on philly.com. im so damn sick of everyone trashing the sixers just too trash them. when i saw this website last night, i assumed it was the same thing. i clearly assumed wrong.
Brendon…I actually agree with your eyesight test. I’d say he might be a tad shorter then 6’0 too. But, unlike Iverson, he’s not just a gambling quick defensive guard.
I mean…he is a LOCK DOWN individual on ball defender. Youve certainly got a great point in that he may have trouble handling bigger guards…as a Jameer Nelson has…but Lawson’s footwork on the defensive end is so good, and he’s so great at keeping himself between man and ball and not letting his man get an open drive to the hoop…this is why I think he’ll be fine in the NBA. He doesn’t run around like a chicken with his head cut off trying to make steals…he plays fundamentally sound, traditional, old school great defense.
thats a good point. i agree that hes always played soundly on the defensive end. I guess what im saying is that im thinking he’ll start over-compensating in the nba because of his stature. i wish he wasnt playing in denver behind billups so we could see more of him this season.
on a side note: no matter how much people are pissed at the sixers for passing on ty…at least we dont have the minnesota GM running the sixers. their draft was comical. it did not make a lick of sense and if i was a timberwolves season ticket holder, id have canceled them last night.
You said it Dave T! We are different from other Sixer Forums. We love our team, but are critical at the same time! We have expressed our frustrations once in a while, but we all gather ourselves and see things more clearly. Other forums would be solely consumed with the bitterness and have become Debbie Downers. We are open to everyone’s opinions, but not through extreme hatred. We are Reclinergms and we appreciate each other. We are inclinced to listen to one another. We do not want any “bitter seeds” to sour our wonderful Forum. We are passionate, yet reasonable fans! And by darn it, we are Reclinergms!
I know this is getting old but couldn’t resist.
Yes Lawson may be 6 ft even or under, but I would rather have someone who is smaller and much stronger physically than someone who is a few inches taller and bone thin, a la Maynor. I would certainly rather have someone with a resume like Ty’s, than a project, but we have what we have. Hopefully it works well.
This site is making me a believer. Sorry for the earlier posts. Dannie knows his stuff. I just think people need to realize that we have so many more options for 2 gaurds now that we have a 6 4 pg. Again, sorry for the S talkin. Lets go 76ers!!!!
psyche!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
hmmm. real mature.
you can’t build for the present and the future at the same time. i honestly have no idea what this team’s plan is, or if they even have one.
What a relief! Relief for what? To come here and read some of these comments from draft night and beyond. Especially the one’s by the moderators of this site pertaining to individuals being able to voice their opinions as fans. I mean, we all feel we have a certain level of ownership in our favorite teams. That is the beauty that makes and defines us as fans!
I attempted to voice my discerning eye opinions over at DepressedFan.com, but was wrongfully ridiculed and regarded as an inferior. Pretty unbelieveable that if you don’t fall in line with the masses (or moderator in this case), you are so easily dismissed.
But it truly is refreshing to see that there is an all emcompassing forum for a litany of ideas and opinions of my beloved Sixers. And to have the kings of the throne be welcoming of differing points of view and, most importantly in my case, objectiveness concerning the decisions this organization chooses to make.
On a side note: Dave T – I could have thought we were one and the same after reading your comments on this article. Glad to know I’m not alone on the feelings and emotions of this pick.