I got to work today and the immediate conversation with Pete went like this…
Pete: “Soooo….. Elton Brand?”
Dannie: I saw one low post play and he looked horrible.
Pete: He IS horrible. I don’t get it.
Dannie: The more I watch the more I don’t think his body is right. He looks like he knows what he wants to do but his body just can’t do it. This year might be a wash although I hope not. He could get back to it next season after fully healing and regaining his bounce. Right now the bounce isn’t there.
Pete: God you’re optimistic. My take is that he just sucks – forever.
Dannie: Haha OK. I will be sure to mention that when I do my Elton post. “Pete says he sucks – forever!”
Pete: Haha. Yup. No shot.
(Yes we actually do real work as well.)
That little exchange was a foreshadowing of information to come later in the afternoon.
One of, if not my favorite thing on ESPN.com is the chat sessions with the writers and players they have. Today provided us with some interesting nuggets of information and speculation about our big free agent acquisition Elton Brand.
Could the Sixers Really Give Up on Elton Brand THIS Season?
Let me start with the actual rumor via two Chad Ford quotes. One from the chat today and another from his most recent Trade Watch article.
Chad Ford: (1:23 PM ET ) Yes … from what my sources around the league are saying, Brand is available. The question is, given how poorly he’s played this year and his huge contract, does anyone want him?
It’s not hard to see that the Sixers’ future looks brighter with their youth, not their veterans. While Miller might be the first casualty, it’s not inconceivable that Elton Brand is next.
Let me make this clear, I do not read this the same way I did when I wrote about the Samuel Dalembert trade rumor. As in they are actively shopping Elton Brand. But it clearly sounds like Ed Stefanski and the Sixers are certainly not against entertaining offers for Brand. Even though he has only played in 25 games with the team and only 3 1/2 under Dileo after signing his 5-year, $79M contract.
Of course that stimulates all sorts of new trade scenarios most people wouldn”t have even considered because the thought of trading Brand was so foreign. With that said here are a few that Ford addressed in his chat….
Miami Heat
Patrick (Miami): Where does Marion end up Chad? Can the Heat get something better for him than O’Neal? Or do they hold on to him and then go after Boozer again this summer?
Detroit Pistons
Chicago Bulls
Dick (NY): How about Brand returning to Chicago? Any chance?
I think everyone knows my dislike for Tyrus Thomas and Joakim Noah. Sheed would be an older upgrade over Elton Brand, but if the idea is to get a power forward that is in harmony with the Sixers’ desire to run, Wallace doesn’t really fit the bill either.
The Shawn Marion deal is very intriguing to me for two reason.
- The Sixers could rent him for the rest of the season and probably play extremely well. He would fit in perfectly as a smaller power forward who thrives in the open court and a fast break style of play. So he could come in, mesh, provide some excitement for this season and a possible playoff run into the second round. Then the Sixers could let him walk and improve their cap position dramatically in the off-season.
- Basically swap Brand for Marion long-term. Resign Marion and have him be the smaller, more athletic power forward that seems to work on this team as assembled. Marion is only a year older, will likely come a bit cheaper and with possible 1 less year on a new contract than Brand and fits with the style of play the Sixers seemed committed too (more on this in a future post).
Best scenario for the Sixers would involve us trading Brand for Amare AND being able to resign him long-term. Like the conversation I had with Pete above, I am more optimistic we can make Brand in Philly work. But that all depends on him returning to form physically and with regard to his consistency and production.
Your thoughts?
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god, so basically admit that Elton Brand was another team wrecking D. Motumbo deal? they sure do play better without him
If the Sixers could get an expiring contract like Marion or R. Wallace for Brand, they could be below the cap this summer — and possibly enough to be a player in free agency if they renounce Andre Miller and the new acquisition. They’d have $42.3 million committed in 2009-10, with the cap expected to be $60 mill (a $17.7 mill difference). It’d give them another option.
I think what we should do with Brand depends mostly on what we are going to do with AMiller. Right now, we have three players that love to dominate the ball and need lots of space to operate, including our PG (also Iggy and Lou). As great as Miller has been, his style is most certainly at odds with Brand’s. If we are going to run with (and resign) Miller, Marion seems like a much better option than Brand.
I don’t know if resigning Miller is the way to go, though, for 2 main reasons: age and shooting ability. *We are not going to win games if we can’t get better shooters*. Other PG’s, including more traditional passers or more combo/shooting types, would theoretically benefit from Brand’s presence.
What do you think about trading Miller for, say, Kirk Hinrich, who seems to be expendable with the emergence of Rose? Or even Brand? He has the ability to shoot over 40% from downtown and his percentages would most likely rise with a post presence to get him open looks. He has a reputation for being a hard-nosed defender (2nd team all-defense). He should be able to average as many assists as Miller in Philly, but averages about half a turnover less for his career. Exactly the type of player I would like to see in Philly: someone who doesn’t need the ball as much, who can shoot, has leadership abililties and a reputation for hard work.
Dannie, I don!t think E.S. is gonna deal him because in his current condition there probably isn!t a good deal out there. Do you take L.Hughes and T.Thomas ? It clears you in 2 years of 12 mill. plus gives you a player [Thomas] that fits our style . Do you go after Marion and possibly have to take M.Banks in the deal ? Do you try and get Jamison and a bad contract from Wash., another better fit here. How about Szerbiak and Hickson ? I doubt it. K.Martin and Kleiza, maybe. Charlotte would probably take him, but for what ? Dunleavy and Nesterovic, not sure Indiana would do that. Does E.S. have the balls to admit a possible mistake and move on quickly[Croce ?] yea I think he does but again I don!t know what you get back.
I love the thought of it Dannie in either scenario. I think if you could keep Marion for less then 7 or 8 mill for 4 years a trade like that would be a bargain, but if he walked and the team ended up with cap space to try this FA thing one more time that wouldn’t be bad either.
There was another article done by C. Ford today about the Heat and A. Miller and it is an insider article, and I dont know how much of you pay the 6 bucks a month, so I have to post it. It is titled 5 teams shopping for a PG.
That’s why I think this trade could be possible, and came up with this, or at least this with the NBA trade machine. I think it would help both teams instantly.
Miami would move in to contention status again easily or at least that would be the expectation, and if it doesn’t work out they get an expiring contract to help their cap in Miller to help with the thought of losing all that space with Marion.
Phila would get a young PG to replace Miller, which we all know needs to be addressed sooner or later, and get an athletic 3/4 who flourishes in the open court and who was born to play in a high tempo offense or at least the cap space to try the FA in the future.
I mean if Miami is actually considering trying out JO you think they would jump at the chance to get Brand. Don’t forget that Miami was the team that signed Brand to an offer sheet that LA had to match to keep him, so someone must be high on him down there.
I love the thought of this being a possibility, but I am quick to make rash decisions and that’s why I am no GM. What do you guys think?
Sorry Dannie, I’m trying I swear.
Ryan F – No need to apologize just making sure the comment is easy to read for everyone, part of my duty as the blog owner.
About your trades – the salaries work but I think they are too involved. A simply more likely to get done trade would be Brand and Rush for Marion.
I don’t think Miami wants to trade Chalmers and actually got some feedback from a Miami Heat beat writer about that.
I think they believe he can be a long-term answer at point. And at the very least could be an excellent back-up point for a long time if they do come across an elite point, which I don’t think makes sense for the Heat anyway.
They have Wade who dominates the ball, so they need a point that doesn’t need the ball a lot to be productive, who can defense and shoot to compliment him. Chalmers can be that player and is already that player defensively. I think he has all-defensive team ability.
Also, I really don’t see Miami wanting Miller that much either. He can’t be the spot up shooter next to Wade and is mediocre defensively. Also, I really can’t see them resigning Andre Miller which would leave them in a situation with no point guard next season having traded away Chalmers.
I think your deal would make more sense by taking Chalmers out and inserting Cook.
By imputing Cook you have to take out Jones. Those are their two sharpshooters so they would need to keep one of them and they might be committed to James since he was their only real free agent acquisition.
My 2cents.
Nice post D-money. I’m open to the Sheed for Brand swap.
Do you guys really think Miami would take themselves out of the 2010 free agent chase for Elton ? J.Oneal only works because in 2 years his money comes off. And apparently if Toronto doesn!t take Banks, that deal doesn!t happen. I agree with you Dannie, Chalmers isn!t going anywhere and when you read the comments out of Chicago ,Hinrich probably isn!t either. E.S. won!t give him away but Miami can!t possibly give Marion away either. They can sit there and let him go and sign Rasheed in the off season if they want to.
You guys maybe right but I will still keep dreaming, but I still wouldn’t be opposed to EB, Rush/Marion.
Not that my thoughts matter, but I still believe we should plug ahead with the team as is with a hope to get a shooter. I have no problem getting rid of Green (I doubt any would argue) and Sammy (even though I like his playing right now) but I want Elton to stay atleast for 2 years. You asked for opinions and that is mine. And I still believe we can win with our lineup now IF Sammy plays smart (which is close to impossible) and/or Green is traded or benched.
The sixers probably have everyone on the market. Too soon to look to trade Brand though. He’s damaged goods right now. After he gets healthy if he still doesn’t fit our system and is playing well then we’ll see. Marion is tempting with our team as constituted until we get in the playoffs and are forced to play a 1/2 court game. Of course, that’s why we got Elton in the first place.
We should not trade Elton Brand for either Marion or Sheed. Why:
1. IMO, the Sixers athletic up and down team of last year plus a few (A-Miller, Green, Iguodala, Thad, D-bere…+ Lou, Speights, Ratliff) only looks good now because we happen to be hot. This is NOT any kind of good team long term. This is a team that will always be .500 or a few games above. You can only go so far with a slashing athletic team that has no shooting, no post presence, and hustles on defense.
2. Marion is looking like he might start to pull a Michael Finley pretty soon. aka: a career 18-21 ppg guy, very versatile, hitting that 31-32 age, switches teams…and instead of still producing at a near all star level with a step or two slower, just tanks like a rock and fades.
It is true that Marion has battled injuries both last year and one could make the argument we haven’t seen the “real” Marion. But from watching the Heat, he honestly looks like he’s completely lost his mojo. I’ve never been in the camp of “Marion is Marion because of Nash.” He had three extremely productive years sans Nash and D’Antoni, where he was a legit second or third offensive option on any team, a very good defender, could shoot, slash, get up high and flashy, and make people around him better.
In watching the Heat…honestly it’s very similar to Brand. Marion just does not look like the Marion I know. He’s not showing any aggression and is deferring ridiculously to everyone around him. We are talking about a guy who always thought (and I believed rightfully so) that he should have been the true 2nd option over Amare Stoudamire, and would regularly take it to an opponent off the drive and just flush it. This Marion seems dead, and his defense has gone downhill as well.
3. Say we did the deal only to “rent” Marion, and let his huge contract come off. This means we are, in effect, trading Elton Brand for cap space for the 2009 FA class. aka: Carlos Boozer, and a bunch of stiffs. Now, I for one would gladly replace Boozer for Brand in a heartbeat, and it would almost be comical if we traded a 6′8 PF for cap space, only to sign another 6′8 PF with a similar game. But we’d never land Boozer, as it seems pretty set he’s choosing between Utah and Miami. And there are not other truly legit players that would cause us to gel and get over the hump in the ‘09 FA class.
4. Sheed: Really? Really? Does anyone actually think renting him for a year and then having some extra cap space does ANYthing to help us? Sheed is the classica guy that could have dominated the league for years, but like KG, is a guy more comfortable to deferring to teammates and being “glue”. We do not need that. We need someone in the post that can be relied on to score as a consistent threat. Sheed is old, getting older, no way we’re signing him long term, and he might help us get a few games over .500, but after that…just don’t see the point.
Why I’m ok with Brand for now: I’m a patient guy. IMO, most moves are made out of impatience, by trigger happy GMs that don’t like what they see and have a “win now” mentality. I don’t mean to be making excuses at all…but Brand is coming off a major injury from the offseason, and I dont think one month in November gave him enough time to gel, get his timing back or anything. He then got injured again, effectively destroying his season as he now has to get back in game shape, and get the rust off a 2nd time.
Dannie makes an excellent point in that “Brand doesn’t seem right.” I 100% agree. In watching plenty of Brand during his Clipper days, it is true that much of his game involves the high post area and pick-pop jumpshots. But this would REALLY be selling him short. He IS an effective post player…he DOES have an effective back to the basket game…he is an excellent rebounder, and IS a very tough defender on other PF’s in the league that has the potential to give them defensive headaches. All the above is what I saw from the Brand in LA. Great fundamental midpost game, effective back to the basket, knew angles, footwork, and could outsmart other bigs to score inside and be relied on. He was never an “alpha” dog…but was certainly a legit #2 option, and dependable post player.
This begs the question…why has this Brand NOT shown up? To me…when you combine 1. coming back from an injury 2. getting acclimated with new teammates 3. getting reinjured 4. the team being HOOOOREEEENDOUSSSLLY coached by Mo Cheeks 5. playing with a PG you clearly don’t gel with (see ‘03 Clippers)…this combination results in poor play from Brand.
I think given time, patience, and coaches that really know offense and how to get guys gelling in a system (Avery, EJ)…Brand, while not ideal, will certainly be capable of a 19 & 10 with 2 blocks…where we are able to tag team a nice running game, and a good halfcourt game as well.
If Phoenix can have problems transitioning from a run n gun team to mixing it up with two frontcourt monsters in half court sets…and they are being patient…I think we can afford to be as well. (and I only mean the comparison as far as team structure similarities…obviously Shaq/Brand should not be mentioned in the same breadth).
p.s: There is also the issue, umm…of us STILL having no legit 3 point threat, which will obviously make any big man’s life harder in that the floor is not spread and defenses can easily pack it in. But that’s been beaten to death as everyone here is aware of that situation.
Again, don’t mean to be making excuses for Brand, as part of this is that he has flat out not played up to what he is capable of that we saw in LA’s “other team”…and his confidence level seems extremely low. And I’m not saying “Let’s ignore all offers”…if something came up that would help us in the long term, I’d be all for it. But I do not see cap space, or Marion/Sheed for short or long term being answers we need. If it was the Marion of 02-06, yes, but not the Heat-Marion.
Trading with the Bulls: Now if we were talking a sign-trade for Ben Gordon (20 ppg, not great shot selection and overdribbles and can hog the ball…but can HIT SHOTS and is a pure scorer with a well rounded offensive game) and Tyrus Thomas (the latter who I still think is a potential 12 rebounds, 2.5 blocks a game double double in the making if Tyrus gets his head screwed on)…THAT would be something to ponder. I’d be fine sliding Iguadala to the 3 and having Thad come off the bench with Lou Will for a formidable bench mob.
To the person that also mentioned Kirk Hinrich…who while not an amazing talent, is solid, very tall, a great defender, and can hit the three…it’s intruiging, but if we are trading Brand I’d want a little more bang for the buck.
You’re right, Dave…on second thought I wouldn’t trade Brand for Hinrich. I still think Kirk for Miller would be a good move, though. What are we going to use the cap space we would likely get for Brand on? Who can we get who has shown the ability to be competitive in the second round of the playoffs? It’s too early to bail now. I don’t see any way of moving him without taking a step back.
I think even if we had a 3pt threat Brand would still get doubled and every time he does either turns it over, force a miss or BARELY gets rid of it.
I was never a huge fan of the Brand signing, I was much happier when I saw them pushing for Smith or just the thought of them saving the money, but I won’t lie and say I wasn’t ever optimistic or excited when the deal went through ( I am sure you could go through some past comments and see that I was). I was actually at a beach house in Dewey Beach, De when the story was first reported on ESPN, and I just had to go to court because a friend and I were so loud that the cops came and gave us a citation for maintaining a disorderly dwelling (bastards). I was not upset because Brand is not a good player, but I thought that he would not fit well in the 76ers style of play, and so far he hasn’t.
I think what Dannie is hinting at in the last few sentences of this post is that the Sixers are commited to this style of play with the roster that was built before Brand got here, and either we are gonna have to change our style around him ie. the PHX Suns when they traded Marion for the Big Cactus or this thing may not work. Now whether or not this style is condusive to winning a championship is the true question, and in which way should the Sixers look to go.
So do you stand pat and not make a move and hope the grass gets greener, do you go the hard route and try to make this team into a 1/2 court team that plays off of Brand?
DiLeo said it himeself that with this team they’re not going to focus on Brand in the offense, and they are going to use him as a trailer on the break and a defensive presence, is that really worth 80 mill on the cap for 5 years, I am starting to think not.
Dave T – Not only can you not compare EB to Shaq, but you can’t compare the Sixers lineup to the Suns. You could throw Skinner or Voskuhl in there for 3/4 of a season and they’ll still win 45-50 games in any style of play.
They can afford to be patient, we all know that in the playoffs a healthy Shaq can win you a championship on his own. I think that is still true with the way he has been playing at 37 yrs old, if you add Nash/Hill/Stat/J Rich it helps a bit.
Can you say the same thing about EB or the Sixers lineup? How about after watching him play this season, on this roster?
What about Brand, Rush & no.1 pick to Minnesota for KLove & MMiller. Gives us a rebounding/outlet tossing young power forward and a shooting 2/3? Don’t think Minny would go for it until EBrand is proved healthy. I’d like it from the sixers perspective.
If someone offered you a great deal for Brand, you’d have to consider it, but it’s just way way to early pass judgment on the signing. Way too early.
From Chad Ford’s article on availabile PG: “I doubt Mike Dunleavy would hesitate to move [Baron Davis] if he could. On the right team — i.e., a contender — Davis obviously has a lot to offer. But who’s picking up that extra four years and $53 million on his contract? In this economic environment, the Clippers will struggle to find takers. ”
Rather than letting Andre Miller walk for nothing at the end of the year, leaving us with no point guard and no cap space to upgrade the team, what about a straight up trade for Baron Davis? He would fit the sixers style, provide outside shooting, and raise the potential of the team. Neither Igudaola nor Brand is a number one option, but they would look good as a second and third option.
The dysfunctional Clippers get themselves out of a long term commitment and get cap space, and the sixers could throw in a first round pick as well. The trade machine confirms it would work.
I don’t know that Baron Davis would be the right way to go but it would be weird if we made that deal, wouldn’t it. Think about it, Davis gets lured away from GS by the thought of coming to a team with Brand, only to have Brand walk out on the Clips (amidst controversy, btw) leaving Davis in the lurch, only to have the Sixers trade for Davis in the end, thus uniting two guys who looked like they were going to play together on one coast end up as teammates on the opposite coast.
clicheguevara/ALL
Can you technically take a “step back” if we have yet to even step forward since acquiring Brand?
Just like throwing out some food for thought.
Sixers could take a step forward by acquiring a disruptive PG to
ignite running game rather than settling on a “crafty” one, Miller, who initiates little from D end. Following numbers indicate steals per minute (focus, footspeed, anticipation, initiative, work) this season:
C. Paul 13.5
R. Rondo 14.7
J. Kidd 16.2
M. Chalmers 17.0
N. Robinson 19.2
B. Davis 21.0
L. Ridnour 21.3
K. Lowry 21.8
D. Harris 21.9
D. West 22.4
D. Fisher 24.0
C. Billups 24.2
R. Felton 24.6
M. Bibby 24.7
R. Stuckey 25.5
J. Nelson 25.6
S. Blake 27.5
A. Miller 28.2
If an uptempo, running, high-pressure style is the organization’s determined game plan and priority for its youthful stable of talent, it’s time to take the keys from the incumbent “senior citizen” who is being paid 10 mil plus this year, and get a PG who matches that style. Offensively, Miller’s ‘OK to good’; defensively, a price is being paid. Sticking with him is the conservative route. Young wheels needed at the top imo.
* Didn’t include Hinrich, Telfair or Singletary who also topped Miller, on account of their limited playing time to date.
SFW: From all accounts it looks like Kevin McHale is clearly man-crush infatuated with Kevin Love, and would definitely not let him go. It seems like McHale really enjoys mentoring this guy one on one, and sees him as having a similar oncourt personality that he himself had back in the 80’s. Although Love’s minutes have fluctuated throughout the season, this is done purposefully as Kevin has stated he wants to bring Love along slowly and give him a chance to cater his strengths to the NBA game.
No way they’d include a young big (even if a bit undersized) for a seemingly innefective, and injured, Brand right now.
Ryan F: I think the comparison is pretty legit. I’m obviously not saying the Sixers would win 45-50 games without one of our big time guys not here…but it’s pretty clear we are about a .500 ball club without Brand, maybe plus or minus a few games. Just comparing in the sense that we are a team that would be forced, if Brand sticks around, to switch things up so we run sometimes, and play halfcourt sometimes as part of the game plan, and not just run-run-run.
Also…I’d say Phoenix in no way can afford to be really patient. Their window is closing, and closing fast, probably faster than any other former elite team in the NBA. An aging PG, an aging C, a PF that might leave in 2010, and trying to incorporate a new borderline allstar in J-Rich all while working under a new coach? They have a year and a half to make one last legit push, then probably half the team is getting dismantled. I think my point was…so if they under those conditions can be patient, why not us?
Brand trade rumors in the media – There is a huge plus minus to this I haven’t heard people mention:
The negative: This having been leaked…purposefully or not, who knows…gives slight leverage to other teams when bargaining with the Sixers. Any time the media is reporting on a major level like ESPN that team X is trying to get rid of a player, other teams in the league know they want that player gone, and it will be a bit harder to find a great deal for equal value given they know that information.
The positive: It is possible that ES has done this on purpose as a motivational tool for Brand. Even if injuries, rust, lack of chemistry with teammates, lack of Brand having a coach that knows how to use him…whatever some of the reasons for his crap play so far, the one thing I think we can all agree on is that Brand is NOT playing with a certain level of confidence, fire, aggression, and swagger that we should be expecting from a major signing like this.
Brand is a real intelligent guy, and a very cerebral player. ES might have purposefully leaked the story to get Brand motivated by giving him a big kick in the ass wake up call. I remember earlier in the season when Brand had a few bad games, and finally Mo said to him, “Elton, get the ball, and go in there and do your thing, we need you,” where Brand proceeded to offensively maul the other team, and ended with a 25 and 12 or something. Maybe this is an indirect way of trying to do the same thing.
I still side with patience on this one, and believe Morty is right when he says it’s way too early to pass judgement. Just a month ago everyone was whining that the Sixers were a “terrible” team…and with patience, shocking!!!…we are back to .500 ball with half the season left. There is plenty of time to learn to incorporate Brand in our style of play, while accomodating our style of play to fit his style in as well.
Dannie – My thoughts exactly
Dave T – About Marion’s performance this year, you have to factor in that he is playing on a much slower team that has a guy named Dwayne Wade on it and he tends to dominate the ball a bit, and the rest of his numbers haven’t started to decline much at all.
correction for #23: minutes per steal
On Brand, agree with those who say patience, though he’s recently had me thinking of Jim Ard for the first time in years.
I want Brand to stay, Marion is washed up and there are no franchise changing free agents next year. Bring in Kirk Hinrich for Andre Miller, cap room for the Bulls to resign Ben Gordon. Sixers get point defender who can knock down a three. Make possible 2nd round appearance in the playoffs this year than do something about the starting 2 guard spot in the off season.
Couple things….
First – I am on the side (only a step or two) of patience but Stefanski has openly said patience isn’t at the top of his list. Winning know is considering the investment which was substantial. Therefore substantial improvement and results (wins) should accompany the outlay. You go after young players if patience is part of the plan. You expect immediately production and results when acquiring proven veterans. You’ve essentially paid for the “proof” not the “potential.”
Second – As I tried to point out in the post the report isn’t that Brand is being shopped or that the Sixers want him gone. The report is that he isn’t completely off limits to teams that present a favorable offer which may not have been the case two months ago.
Dave T, the reason you haven’t heard your negative bent on the situation, at least from me, is because I don’t agree with that train of thought in this case at all. I think that is taking the rumor too far away from what it is – mere speculation.
As for your positive angle…. I don’t think so given the way the information was presented. It was an impromptu response to a ESPN Chat question from a fan not a planned reporting of news. To be honest I don’t think it is anything more than a team inquiring about Brand and Stefanski saying what are you offering rather than “get the hell out of here are you out of your mind, Brand is not going anywhere.” From that you can read as Brand being available which is the exact language used by Ford in his response.
Finally – I don’t think judgment is being passed by large as many are suggesting. The thought that Elton Brand is even available for trade has sparked questions.
I don’t know whether or not Brand can ever be seamlessly integrated. I know he is a fine player. A lot has to do with his health and production. If he is 100% healthy and has the “bounce” as I like to call it I think things will be fine. But he has yet to show me that and that is disconcerting considering all the assurances from him, management and the medical staff that he was 100%.
Earlier in the season Lou and AI2 were really struggling..maybe now that they are playing better Elton can have space to play better in the post. Maybe not.. but give the guy a chance. His trade value is at its lowest right now. Give him at least the remainder of this year to prove if he can play with this team. Swap him out for a sign and trade…
The “bounce” is forever lost. His achillies tendon popped or ruptured.
Ya don’t need a doctor’s report to understand that his physical best is in the rearview mirror. Hacksaw the cable above your heel, then sew it up, rest, and do rehab exercise until the cows come home. You can
move on a court again, but you’re a little slower to react, jump a little less high, have reduced confidence in ability to perform and never forget the trauma and its physical and psychological costs.
2on5: That’s an interesting proposal. Obviously the guy the Bulls would love to move most is Larry Hughes, and there is no @#!$ing way 90% of the teams in the league are looking to take a flier on him. But it does seem like they are going to want Gordon around, and he will probably get a contract in the $10-11 million range.
Trading Hinrich, who they are probably looking to move anyway given Rose’s emergence, for A-Miller (aka: half a year rental-mentor to D-Rose, and cap space) might make some sense. Although I believe we’d have to throw in one more minor player to make salaries work (D Marshall? Jason Smith?).
I’m not exactly a “Hinrich guy”…but the man can hit the 3, can run a team pretty solidly, is a nice defender, and would only be on the books for another two years at a decent price. In the long run, this might be better then having to resign A-Miller for another 3 years…or letting him go and having only a draft prospect to groom…or Lou Williams, who is not a PG.
Dannie: I wasn’t meaning to take the rumor to far…I understand that it was more an idle comment from a journalist/fan interaction. But this is a trade Elton Brand?-column, and I was sticking to the various scenarios of possibly trading him vs. not trading him, especially for someone like Marion or Sheed, which to me are sideways moves that do not benefit the team.
You make a really great point with the “young players you expect to take time and groom, veterans you are paying for proof they have shown”. Well stated, and I agree, which is why we are all so frustrated about Brand’s performance so far. But I do think because of recent moves in the past year (KG to Boston, Gasol to LA, Billups to Denver)…there is a perception of “trades need to work now” because for those respective teams, chemistry happened quickly with their veteran movement. I just think that they are the minority and not the majority…that usually team growth requires long term patience. But you are absolutely right in that we expect more from veterans after a signing big contract. Even if the team chemistry hasn’t clicked, they should be performing on an individual level, which Brand hasn’t done so far.
If you look around the league right now, we are one of the more complex situations out there. We have a vet PG that no one knows whether we will retain or not…a PF that is mysteriously underperforming…do not have our future coach in place…questioning the need for a legit SG…and have two very talented SF’s in the making that can’t stretch the floor in the necessary way.
Given the above…I don’t think letting Brand get back in game shape and work his minutes up to 30 per game to see if he can gel with our run-defense style of play is a waste of time at all. We paid the money, and IMO haven’t had a true chance to see what we’ve got yet. I want to see that first before making a rash decision.
To me I am not all for trading him, but I think if he doesn’t show up soon ES has to truly consider any decent offer, whether it is Marion or whatever. Right now he still has value and who knows if he will hurt that or improve it in the future..
I am not for patience, if he doesn’t perform our team will be a .500 team for a while, which some of you sound content with, and in 5 years when his contract runs out a lot of our “young” guys won’t be so young anymore. He is a vet, all-star caliber player, you were brought here with confidence to do a job. Do it or you’re expendable, that goes for anyone.
Myself, and most of you spend a considerable amount of money and even more time watching and talking about this team. Succeed or find a way, however it may be.
Dave T – How long does the team give him to get these “game legs” back? A whole season, two? How many games does he have to play in until they get a “look” at him?
Dave T – Here’s where I disagree. Sure you knew some chemistry needed to be worked out, but they still have enough talent to win more games during the process. That was problem. Most of that had to do with other guys flat out stinking, but Brand was below par as well. And some had to do with Cheeks as well.
I don’t know if I can agree with this on two fronts.
First – Like I said, when you bring in a proven veteran the expectation is results immediately from him and the team because his impact is assumed to be extremely positive and his production contagious. You don’t go out and sign a 30 year-old superstar and talk patience. Strategically that doesn’t make sense to me at all. You paid a premium for instant results. Now “results” is relative. I am not saying they should have come out and been the best team in the conference, but their level of play was near the bottom and that is unacceptable.
To add to that, the GM who made the move has openly said he isn’t preaching patience
Second - I think you may be doing what you think we all are doing by looking at recent moves and assuming it’s the minority. For example:
The Sixers with Brand have been marginally better in terms of wins and that isn’t saying anything considering how dismal the team was last year.
I know Brnad isn’t on any of those guys level, BUT the point is you sign a guy that is a proven player with proven production that is highly touted by management as the answer (which Ed and Dileo have) the one thing that absolutely can’t happen is regression serious regression in terms of the players individual performance and team success certainly can’t regress or even remain flat.
jjg: I’m with you re Miller. Sometimes you need to take a step backwards to take a step forward. I’ve been saying for a while that, since letting him walk doesn’t do much for the team’s cap space, he really should be moved at the deadline in order to get something in return. Miller does a lot that is good, but a better defender with a solid 3 point stroke and decent play making (could be lower than Miller) ability would be a better fit for this team.
Dannie and DaveT., The one variable in your adding a vet. argument is none of the others was coming off major surgery. A bit of patience has to be shown, wouldn!t you think ? Morty, I agree a push the ball, pressure the ball p.g. might improve us greatly defensively and if he can hit the three that is a bonus , but size is an issue also, that is why I believe Ivey was brought in, because of L.Will being a 25 minute guy. T.Lawson is hitting 3!s this year and is custom made for this running team but is only 5!10″ or so. I personally wouldn!t mind packaging L.Will. with A.Miller and getting a p.g. and sniper this summer that can both defend, if that is a possibility because we need to get REAL good at THAT to have a chance to win without a stud player. I hope Elton works out because as bad as he looked early he was still getting 16 and 10 when NOBODY was making an outside shot and that can!t be discounted.
Suede – The problem is he was brought in under the assumption he had fully recovered. Brand, the medical people and management said he would need to work off some rust and get in game shape. I was fine with that. No one was talking about him using part of the season to continue his physical recovery from the injury. Why should that be an excuse now?
I have merely been pointing out the fact that he has lost his “bounce” since getting hurt and we haven’t seen it yet. That is a MAJOR concern for me. Sure he can use his girth to make space and get OK shots. But without the quickness and decent jumping ability he is not going to be the impact we need him to be.
And he was scoring an inefficient 16 ppg at the beginning of the season. Shouldn’t need 13 shots to get it done especially at the power forward position which traditionally should be a higher % scoring position in your line up. This team doesn’t shoot well enough for Brand to be posting a 45% field goal percentage.
Look, this is how things go. When players and teams stink you talk about them sucking because it’s the reality of the moment. If Brand get’s his game back and his agility and quickness back all the chatter will go away. But all we’ve seen are less than a handful of solid games against so-so opposition. That isn’t what we got him for. The deal would have to really be good to move him.
The biggest reason I was OKAY with the Marion deal is because it gives you two options, resign him and play your style or collect the cap space, most deals don’t give you that kind of flexibility. But even that deal isn’t ideal.
I am less concerned about him being integrated effectively and more concerned whether we got shorter, weaker passing Chris Webber.
Dannie: I hear your point, and partially agree with it, but I don’t think using players of the caliber you mention work with the analogy. Any 1st tier, 1st banana type player should definitely be expected to change a team’s culture. I mean…Shaq, Moses, Barkley…we are talking about some of the best players of all time here. These guys cause waves on the NBA and are forces to be reckoned with. Brand at any given time has been, at best, the 5th best PF in the league and no higher (Duncan, KG, C-Webb, Dirk, Amare, Bosh, J’Oneal, even Boozer…any four of them in a given year would be ranked above Brand, except possibly the ‘06 season where he might be 4th).
I actually think the 2005 Shaq actually argues your point. The majority of that season Miami sucked. They started, like our Sixers, with a sub-.500 record, and amidst the pressure, weak record and team not clicking Stan Van stepped down so Riley could take over. Even with Riley they were right at a .500 ball club most of the year, not intimidating at all, and the majority of the year were not considered a realistic threat.
Then right towards the end…late February after the all star break I believe…they starting clicking, getting on the same page, Shaq’s stats helped to cause W’s, Riley got them playing good defense, and they walked into the playoffs real hot, and “beat” Dallas (thanks to 100 touch foul calls on D-Wade). IMO, if you look at that year as a whole, Miami was an incredibly overrated team that had one very good stretch in the 2nd half of the year and got hot at the right time.
My point being: many teams, or individuals, are capable of doing things in the second half of the year when given patience…and turn things around. I’m willing to give Brand the benefit of the doubt on this one, given what I’ve seen in Clipperland, his work ethic, positive attitude, and strengths. I don’t think we’ve seen yet what he’s capable of, and if he is capable of getting 100% healthy and in game shape…I want to see him with this now-energized Sixers team, as opposed to the poorly coached Mo team.
Also…why would how much management touts a player have anything to do with an opinion on a forum? Personally I thought ES overhyped and oversold his skills during the signing period, so what ES thinks isn’t going to have much correlation with my own thoughts on Brand, and I’m sure most fans disagree with quite a few viewpoints or beliefs their GMs have.
I’m just very surprised that given all of us have JUST watched our own Sixers go from seven games below .500, to playing up to their Non-Brand potential…why would people not think the same thing could happen for one individual player in the 2nd half of the year in our system? I still think with the talent we have now, this is a 47-49 win team IF properly coached, and IF healthy, and it makes perfect sense for a team to start below .500, then get to .500, and then click better in the last quarter of the year to start impressing people as they get to know each other better and round into form.
I’m with others that say the Andre Miller situation is what we should be concerning ourselves with, not Brand.
Dave T – For one the ‘05 Heat team (Shaq’s first season there) won 59 games and Van Gundy coached the entire season.
You are referring to the following season in which they started 11-10 and Van Gundy stepped down. I would have accepted that in the Sixers case with Brand but they started 9-14 under Cheeks. Miami then went 41-20 the rest of the way that is a .672 winning percentage and I certainly do not see that happening do you?
Also, you factor in what management says because it speaks to their opinion of the player and his impact based on their assessment. It’s fine for fans to disagree with GMs but those are the people making the decision so I pay close attention to what they say and do.
If they believe he is the answer and he proves not to be regardless of whether we believed their propaganda it tells you something about how those guys are building the team. If they are really willing to move Brand it means they believe they could do better.
Gotta run.
Thanks for clearing that up, I was definitely confusing the 04-05 and 05-06 seasons.