August 28, 2014

Athletic Testing Out: How Does Favors Compare?

The athletic testing is finally out, and there are some interesting things to discuss. I (Pete, not Dannie) was most interested in seeing just how explosive a player Derrick Favors could be. I wanted to see how he matched up against other player of his size and caliber in recent drafts.

Below you will find 2 charts with the 15 players (plus Favors) that meet the following criteria:

  • Drafted from 2000-2009
  • Drafted in top-10
  • Height with shoes is 6′ 9.75” to 6′ 11.75”
  • Primary position is PF or C (this only excluded Kevin Durant)

Note: I put Favors and Howard together so they are easily comparable

Height/Weight/Reach Etc…

Vertical, Agility, Sprint Etc…

Analysis

So with all these numbers and different players, how exactly does Favors compare? I went about ranking each player simply. I ranked them in each category and took the average of those rankings to determine who has the most well-rounded combination of size and atheltic ability. I excluded Height w/o Shoes (irrelevant), Weight (could be good or bad), Body Fat (not everyone has data) and draft position (irrelevant). That leaves 10 different categories. After ranking and averaging out everyone, here is how the rankings played out…

1. Dwight Howard, 4.0
2. Derrick Favors, 4.6
3. Emeka Okafor, 5.2
4. Nene Hilario, 5.8
5. Amare Stoudemire, 6.1
6. Blake Griffin, 8.0
7. Brandan Wright, 8.1
8. Chris Bosh, 8.2
9. LaMarcus Aldridge, 8.8
10. Jordan Hill, 8.9
11. Channing Frye, 9.0
12. Eddie Griffin, 9.4
13. Kwame Brown, 9.4
14. Al Horford, 9.8
15. DeSagana Diop, 10.8
16. Drew Gooden, 11.8

I don’t know about you, but with the exception of flipping Brandon Wright and Al Horford, the top-9 look like the 9 best players picked.

Conclusion

It’s not a stretch to call Favors Dwight Howard-esque. He certainly appears to be the best athlete/big-man to come out this decade with the exception of Howard, who he is only slightly behind.

There is definitely more risk with Favors than Turner, but I think this shows that Favors could floor the Sixers in his pre-draft workout. I imagine we won’t know who we’re gonna pick until it actually happens. I also told Dannie that while I still like Turner as the pick, I might be swayed by the time the draft rolls around.

Frankly, I’m just happy to have the Favors/Turner debate. It’s about 2,000 times better than the Aminu/Aldrich debate.

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Comments

  1. jkay says:

    Pete: if you look at those top 9, the success of the players is also related to their skill level upon entering the draft. removing Howard, who is a freak of nature, Bosh, Aldridge, Stoudemire all had pretty good offensive skill upon being drafted. players like Okafor and Wright who were without offense ended up as utility bigs.
    if he’s not a monster like Howard that can get by mostly on atleticism, good chance he ends up being another Tyson Chandler type.

  2. Pete says:

    also, I didn’t include Cousins, but if I had he would have ranked 15th (10.4 average)

  3. Pete says:

    “if he’s not a monster like Howard that can get by mostly on atleticism”

    Doesn’t this show he kind of is? Or at least as close as there has been?

  4. Dannie says:

    jkay - Why are you only pointing at “offensive skill” like that is what makes a player?

    Howard was a raw high school kid. He developed into the best defensive big man in the league with a still developing, yet inconsistent offensive game.

    Amare was a raw high school kid as well.  He went in a different direction as a 20+ ppg scorer that is an underachieving rebounder and defender for his athletic ability.

    Favors is more of the Howard elk than Amare, does that make him worse off because his skill set resides on the defensive side and on the boards?

    I don’t get the obsession with scorers/weak defenders, especially for front court players and the lack of excitement for defenders and rebounders when the end goal is winning games.

  5. Stu says:

    He’s just as Emeka Okafor-esque as he is Dwight Howard.

    Just take Turner, please.

  6. Dannie says:

    Stu - You are exactly right.  So I guess the best way to look at Favors is this: You are drafting a player that at worse is Emeka and at best could be Howard.

    The BIG, BIG difference is Emeka was a much more matured player, closer to a finished product when he came out, whereas Favors is much closer to where Howard was when he entered the league. A lot more raw ability to sculpt and develop into the player you want him to be.

    Tonight I will have up the same post as above, but for Evan Turner and we can apply the same sort of deductive reasoning to say at worse he is x player and at best he could be y player.

  7. Pete says:

    So -

    Favors predicted range:

    13-20 ppg

    10-13 rpg

    2-3 bpg

    Though, he could def. be worse than Okafor, we don’t really know.

  8. deepsixersuede says:

    Guys, do you think there is anyway [cringe] that E.S. is gonna pass on Turner because he feels either Thad or L.Will. are gonna become all star level players under Collins? And could Collins talk him into Turner if that is the case? I am happy with either player if their reasoning is sound.

  9. Dannie says:

    Suede - Not a chance to your first question.  If Stefanski actually thought Collins could turn Thad or Lou into an All-Star level player what does he think he could help Turner become?  Grant Hill in his prime?  Think about it.

    Yes, I think Collins with his vast basketball knowledge could have an impact on who we draft.  And he should.  We finally have a guy in the organization that REALLY knows the game.

  10. deepsixersuede says:

    Dannie, I just get the feeling E.S. values Iggy so much, and his versatility, that somebody who can put up 20 ppg. is all that is needed next to him on the wing and getting Sam!s replacement, E.S. being tired of Sam, is more his priority, and I hope I am dead wrong.

  11. Dannie says:

    Suede - Why would you think getting rid of Sam is a priority?  By all accounts getting rid of Brand has seemed like the biggest priority in addition to upgrading the talent.

  12. Drew says:

    Is it just me or does seeing the name Kwame Brown scare the crap out anyone else? Nevertheless, all things equal (which they aren’t) I’ll always take the big man over the scorer. They can just dominate a game more easily, def and off.  I don’t watch enough college ball to give an opinion but can anyone ease my Kwame Brown fears?

  13. Pete says:

    I think the fact that Brown ranked 13th, and Favors 2nd in this exercise should show you the difference….

    Brown has/had short arms and aside from a decent vertical for his height, he was pretty unathletic.

  14. jkay says:

    Derrick Favors is NO KWAME BROWN! period.
    doesnt mean he is a Dwight Howard either.
    the art/science of drafting big men is about as precise as fortune telling. good luck to whoever may venture.
    i am beginning to sound like a broken record; the Sixers have absolutely no luxury of gambling in this draft. be a boy scout and go with the obvious choice. as long as he can pass the physical.
    Wall, Turner. end

  15. jkay says:

    Dannie: I emphasized offensive skill bcos when making the argument for Favors, the potential is supposed to be some sort of dominant big man. dominant in my mind goes directly to offense. or else he might as well be a Sammy. but you’re right about Stoudemire. he came into the league with dunks and not too much in train.

  16. guest says:

    Drew, I wouldn’t compare picking Favors to when the Wizards picked Kwame.  I see a lot of differences seperating the two.
     
    Pressure being the one that stands out to me.
     
    Kwame Brown was drafted number 1, out of high school, by the Wizards who’s team president was Michael Jordan…. who was Brown’s idol.  (Coincidentally, Doug Collins was the coach of that Wizards team if I’m remembering correctly).
     
    The amount of pressure on Kwame surpasses the amount of pressure on Favors by far in my opinion.
     
    Favors has faced higher competition (played in college and Brown did not), and even though he would be the #2 pick in the Draft…. what expectations would we REALLY have for him in his first couple years?
     
    He would be expected to work hard to develop a solid post game, rebound the ball, and play defense, right?
     
    I guess it depends on how much you think pressure influences a player in their first couple of years, but I tend to think it is a factor… and it’s the main reason why seeing Kwame’s name on that list doesn’t worry me.

  17. Dan says:

    Dannie, Howard and Amare were not that raw coming out of high school. In fact, Amare was one of the most offensively skilled high school big men over the past decade to make the jump. And Dwight Howard grew up wanting to be a point guard and had a much more polished game than Favors did his senior year.

  18. jkay says:

    to this day I dont think anyone one knows what really did Brown in; whether it was the great expectations, the mental beatdown he suffered at the hands of MJ, his own lack of drive or maybe he just didnt have the opportunity to be taught slowly.
    I thought he would at least be a serviceable big.

  19. Dannie says:

    Dan - I can’t agree with that at all.

    Howard isn’t polished offensively NOW, so how could he possibly have polished coming out of HS?  He had good raw footwork (evidenced by his very good lane agility performance) as a result of his wanting to be a PG but that didn’t immediately translate to his offensive game like it did defensively. Hell, he said himself in this playoffs that he sometimes still plays like a robot.

    Further, evaluating Howard as a HS player is a waste of time for me.  He was drafted because of his athletic ability and raw skills.  Think about when you were in HS, would a player like Howard have any need for polish or any skills to dominate on that level?

    Amare came in raw as well his skill set was just different from Howard’s.  He was more offensive, but I wouldn’t call him polished by any stretch of the imagination.  Particularly, he really improve and added range to his jumpshot.  I still think even today he isn’t one of the best back-to-the-basket PFs in the league and his best attribute is his quickness in the post more than his actual post moves and savvy (think KG or Duncan).

  20. jkay says:

    Michael ‘the Candy-man’ Olowokandi.
    another big man bust.

  21. Dan says:

    Dannie, Howard had great footwork (which you pointed out) but also had aggressive interior moves. People gave him the “passes like Chris Webber and has an interior game like Amare”. He had much more polish to his game than Favors did his senior year.
     
    Amare’s skill set was very polished as a High School senior. He dominated underneath, played excellent defense, and made every other big in that class look like a little girl in all of the all-star games. His fake to spin move was unstoppable. If anyone remembers his dunk over Tyson Chandler at the Nike Camp I’ll be impressed.
     
    Both players were technically raw but had established post games and were true bigs. Favors, who even says it himself, plays all over the court. I do think that his post game has improved over the past year, but believe it is still not as advanced as Howard’s or Amare’s games were around the same age.

  22. deepsixersuede says:

    Dannie, I think Sam is going because E.S. is fed up with the lateness to practice and inability to work over the summer. Last summer he put a little time in, finally, and saw major improvement in the post at times. E.S. may let Doug evaluate him through next season but if I was a betting man, to me its 75% to 25 % he is let go next season.

    I don!t know what people expected Favors to do last year but Howard, if in the same situation, may have struggled also.  I saw a better jump shot, more fluidity, and similar zeal on the offensive glass from Favors that I see from Howard right now. I think he will be fine offensively because he seems to have a good work ethic.

  23. Dannie says:

    Dan - We can agree to disagree, but I’ll leave you with this:

    About Howard: When Insider saw him in a workout in mid June a few more things stood out. He wasn’t in great shape. His shot was all over the place and he seemed to struggle to pick up some basic low post moves. ~ ESPN draft profile

    About Amare: Taken with the ninth pick last June (and the lone high schooler to be drafted), Stoudemire has been a perfect fit on a rebuilding team—a diligent, energetic presence who, with a vertical leap of 38 inches, can dunk with the quickness of a cobra strike, regardless of which All-NBA player is guarding him. “Sometimes I worry that the rest of the team is just watching to see if he’ll do something jaw-dropping,” says Phoenix coach Frank Johnson, who admits he is afflicted by the same anticipation. “He wows us all the time.”

    Stoudemire’s game is raw, instinctive. When he declared for the NBA draft last May, he had played slightly more than two full seasons of high school ball and received little real coaching. He has no left hand, little range on his jumper and no clue against a double team. ~ SI article

    I don’t argue these guys had some ability.  But polish is far from the word to describe two high school big men that dominated kids with their grown man bodies and athletic ability.

    Howard still isn’t a polished offensively player today.

    Amare has improved greatly with his face up and drive game and even more so with his perimeter jumper (30% on jumpers in 02-03 up to the mid 40% now).

    Favors is raw too.  But he uses his body well and make quick decisive moves when to goes.  I see him more like Howard than Amare.  And I think he is more fluid than Emeka and Howard in the post as well.  His potential is unquestioned, but I think his current ability and college production is being a bit downplayed in all these debates.

  24. deepsixersuede says:

    Howard!s rookie numbers, 12 pts., 10 reb. ; Stoudemire!s  13 pts., 9 reb., and Horford!s 10 pts.,10 reb. ; I think Favors falls somewhere between Horford and Howard because he is more athletic than Horford and more fluid than Dwight but yes, those numbers aren!t out of reach his rookie year.

    Dannie, if we get Turner and the nets get Favors, barring any other additions, which roster would you rather have?

  25. Dannie says:

    Suede - Can’t answer that question without knowing what the Nets do with their free agent money.

    Obviously if they get LeBron or Joe Johnson or whoever that would impact it.

  26. tk76 says:

    All of the measurements are on insider. Here is a link to a copy

  27. tk76 says:

    I’m hoping Dannie can re-format the above before someone stars seizing :)

  28. deepsixersuede says:

    On Liberty ballers, in the comments section of Ford says Sixers like Favors there is a youtube clip from this season and unlike the one on N.B.A. Draft.net this shows a lot of good post work by Favors, and most of it is against doubleteams, to me he isn!t raw at all.

  29. Dannie says:

    TK – I don’t think the comment section is the place for a massive list of measurements.  It’s just not going to turn out pretty.

  30. tk76 says:

    Condensed

    Avery Bradley 31.5 37.5 2 11.47 3.14.
    DeMarcus Cousins 23.5 27.5 -N-a 11.4 3.55.

    Ed Davis 31.0 36.0 -N-a 11.7 3.21.

    Derrick Favors 31.5 35.5 14 11.74 3.25.

    Xavier Henry 28.5 36.5 8 11.1 3.18.

    Wesley Johnson 32.0 37.0 16 11.43 3.14.

    Gani Lawal 27.0 31.5 20 11.61 3.24.

    Greg Monroe 25.0 29.0 15 12.1 3.35.

    Daniel Orton 24.0 30.5 13 12.32 3.39.

    Patrick Patterson 28.5 33.5 17 11.14 3.25.

    Larry Sanders 25.5 28.0 7 12.49 3.27.

    Evan Turner 27.5 34.5 9 11.06 3.27.

    Ekpe Udoh 31.0 33.5 10 11.15 3.29.

    John Wall 30.0 39.0 -N-a 10.84 3.14.

    Hassan Whiteside 27.0 31.5 12 11.83 3.54

  31. Zack says:

    suede, the Nets don’t have enough Iguodala and SammyD types who can do those productive things that can lead to wins, they need that AND a superstar whereas I think all we need is a superstar, preferably one who can create his own shot.  I think the Nets make a huge jump if they could land a superstar type like LeBron James, a bigger jump in winning % than people think.  Watching the game last night, I couldn’t help but think – has JJ Redick really developed and is now a real good player?  Or is his overall talent being enhanced somehow by the presence of Dwight Howard, Van Gundy’s coaching, and the good team chemistry?  If you replaced Redick with Courtney Lee are the Magic better?  A good coach and LeBron might make the Nets more than a 1st-round playoff team.
     
    My answer to your question is that I’d actually prefer the Sixer’s roster with Evan Turner, though I’m very intrigued by possibly getting Cousins and other goodies from Minnesota (getting Rubio would make for fun basketball, but don’t know if it’d be winning basketball).  And you know how Collins keeps talking about getting toughness?  Doesn’t Cousins fit the bill in a way?  I think if we got Cousins and he made all those Iggy faces, fans might not be as put off by them.  He could be embraced by Philly the way Latrell Sprewell was in New York.

  32. Dannie says:

    TK - You are killin’ me!

  33. Dannie says:

    Cousins would not be embraced in Philadelphia.  He is a fat, lazy ball player at this point with a bad attitude.

    Speaking for myself only if we draft Cousins I think I am done with the Sixers all together.

  34. tk76 says:

    Dannie, I’ll refrain from any further spreadsheets.  You have to admit it was “topical.”

  35. Dannie says:

    Not about being topical or not.  It’s about presentation.  No matter how you tried to do it, it comes out looking jumbled and that takes away from the value post.

  36. tk76 says:

    I agree.  That is why those promised updates to the blog (being able to preview/edit) a post will help.  Sorry to hurt anyone’s eyes.

  37. heron says:

    This won’t go over well, but we need to resign Dalembert to a reasonable 3 yr deal.  He’s a better defender rebounder than any big in this draft.  Why try to fill his slot with a young, raw guy with little offensive skills?  Collins has made it perfectly clear he wants Dala at the 3.  He said so hisself.  The Six are going to grab Turner.  All this is much ado about nothin.  The only way we don’t grab Turner is if we make a trade or he goes 1.  Period.

  38. tk76 says:

    I’d be happy to see them extend Sam to a reasonable deal.  I just doubt Sam wants to stay or would sign to a low number.

  39. jkay says:

    i dont think Sixers brass thinks they can trust Sam anymore. the inconsistency and attitude; he’s not exactly something you can count on. I’d say he goes. if we re-sign him, it’ll probably be as a stop gap measure till his replacement comes.

  40. Dave T says:

    Pete – “Frankly, I’m just happy to have the Favors/Turner debate. It’s about 2,000 times better than the Aminu/Aldrich debate.”  AMEN!!!

    Dan – The biggest knock on Amare in the entire decade of the 00′s is that he has never, ever come CLOSE to fulfilling all his potential for one reason: he never truly worked on his back to the basket post game, his total incompetence on defense, and lack of rebounding given his athleticism and size.  He’s always been a player that is more raw than polished, chose to work on his jumpshot more than footwork and post moves, and his career has paid for it.  With the body Amare has, there is no reason he shouldn’t be dominating the paint every year on the block.  Just never put in the work.

    As for Dwight Howard, I honestly think Demarcus Cousins’ footwork has the edge between the two on offense.  Howard’s offensive game is still ridiculously raw.  It’s definitely improved over the years, but still nothing where it should be.

    True polished bigs in the NBA:
    -Tim Duncan
    -Carlos Boozer
    -Al Jefferson
    -Pau Gasol
    -Kevin Garnett
    -Carmelo Anthony
    -Zack Randolph.

    …Dwight and Amare are on the opposite end of the spectrum.

  41. Dan says:

    Dannie, yes we can agree to disagree on this one. While you use ESPN and Cnnsi as examples, I could point to Rivals and Scout for articles that back my opinion. One thing they all have in common (still today), is that their opinions usually vary.
     
    My point wasn’t that Howard and Amare had polished games (although I do think Amare’s offensive post game in high school Was polished), but rather their games were more polished than Favors game at the time and currently. While both used their size and athleticism to dominate most H.S. players, both had go to moves in the post when going up against other skilled bigs.
     
    Both Amare and Howard had not only a physical skill set, but a basketball skill set that allowed them to come into the league and play at a high level. Favors does not possess the “big man” knowledge to come in and contribute immediately. Like I’ve said previously, but guy is a gamble. He could either pan out or be a complete bust, as physical talent does not always mean NBA success, i.e. Marvin Williams or Brandon Wright. If we had the #3 pick then there should be a debate on who to pick, Favors or Cousins. But with the #2 pick, there is no debate.
     

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Trackbacks

  1. [...] prospects to choose from with the #2 pick.  Derrick Favors and Evan Turner.  Pete already did an analysis of how Derrick Favors compares to other power forwards and Centers in the last decade.  Now it’s time to take a look at Evan [...]

  2. [...] Last year we thought Evan Turner was the pick, by a hair, over Derrick Favors [...]