Last week Ken Berger of CBS Sports did some speculating based on those anonymous “sources” journalists seem to always have, that the Sixers could get involved in a three way trade with the Nets and Nuggets.
The big bang of the hypothetical deal would result in:
- The Sixers getting: Derrick Favors
- The Nets getting: Carmelo Anthony
- The Nuggets getting: Andre Iguodala, Thaddeus Young
The money line from that piece:
Two people familiar with Denver’s strategy confirmed the Nuggets would be intrigued by a deal centered around Iguodala.
Which led to talk about Melo actually coming to the Sixers.
Brian over at the Depressed Fan actually asked Rod Thorn on our conference call which he thought was the better value:t Iguodala with his remaining contract or Carmelo Anthony with a max extension.
The numbers: Iguodala for 4 years/$56M or Carmelo Anthony for 4 years/$82M.
Thorn promptly bobbed and weaved his way around that question, as expected.
Fast forward to today.
Denver Now Listening to Offers for Melo
Prior to this report by ESPN Denver was all about keeping Melo and weren’t eliciting offers or aggressively shopping him.
Now Denver is at least telling teams to “show me what you got” in terms of assets to acquire Melo.
That, plus this bit of intel from Kate Fagan:
… adds a bit more oomph to last weeks trade rumors.
So the more you read the more it looks like Carmelo Anthony will be traded at some point. The question is will the Sixers be involved? Directly or as a intermediary.
One Problem
Would Carmelo Anthony even want to come to Philadelphia?
That’s the rub with any discussion of Anthony landing with the Sixers.
Because Melo is only under contract for this season he holds a lot of power in where he goes. Not directly, in that he has a no-trade clause. But indirectly in that he can simply tell any team he doesn’t want to play for that he will not sign an extension or resign once he becomes an unrestricted free agent.
Considering what the Nuggets will be asking for that would be a haul for a one year rental.
And the last time I checked the 76ers weren’t on his short list of teams he would want to sign with.
He hasn’t explicitly said he doesn’t want play in Philly. Do you think there is any chance he would? Especially if the scenario includes him coming to Philly and Iguodala (an ideal wing partner, in my opinion) was going?
Why would he want to play for us?
So my question: Is the Carmelo Anthony to the Sixers talk and scenarios pointless?
While I would love to see Melo in a Sixers uniform, I just can’t come up with a legit reason why he would sign an extension to play here, especially without Iguodala on the roster.
If it got past that hang up, there wouldn’t be any money left if Iguodala, Brand and Melo where on this teams payroll. When you consider we would have to give up our best young players (thinking Turner, Jrue, Thad and/or Speights) plus picks if it’s only us the Nuggets involved in the deal this roster would be bare and no money to fill the bench with quality role players.
I am struggling to see how Melo to Philly makes any sense.
Now us getting involved and bringing a player like Favors to Philly is intriguing.
But would it be worth giving up Iguodala in the process?
I read this but am struggling to come up with a comment.
I hope the sixers just sit on contracts until they can unload them as expirings (brand) or teams looking for a final piece (AI).
I don’t think the team would swap out anthony for AI. The favors thing seems intruiging.
Iggy out and Favors in I would do in a heartbeat.
Melo talk seems pointless to me also. IT just makes no sense for either side. In a vacuum, Philly is an attractive place to play – even if not NY or LA. IT is a great sports town. But not with this team currently assembled, minus Iggy. And if we get him, for budget reasons, we are perenially a 6-8 seed – which is its own kind of chinese water torture in the NBA – An abyss very hard to escape without rebuilding. I am not interested in going there.
Iggy for Favors?…….that’s a really dumb idea…………jeez, know anything about basketball at all…….talk about setting the team back for 3 years.
I would be interested in putting together a package built around the expiring deals of W.Green, Jason Smith and Kapono. Throw in Evan Turner and a number 1 pick and I think that’s a fair deal for both sides.
12.8 million in expiring contracts, young talent, plus a draft pick. What’s not to like?
Raro - I don’t think so.
Maybe, BIG maybe if Evan Turner dominated in summer league would the Nuggets consider him being the centerpiece in a Carmelo deal.
But you have to understand that from the Nuggets side they don’t even think Iguodala for Melo straight up is a fair deal for them. They would at the very least want Iguodala, a pick and/or a young player.
Iguodala is significantly more valued than Turner even with his salary being what it is. I don’t think the Nuggets would gamble in a Melo deal on a young player that could turn out to be just average, especially when its a perimeter player. And the draft pick wouldn’t be all that fruitful if we have Melo, Jrue and Iguodala on the wing for us either.
it’s a superstar league, and any chance you have to get one, you should take it.
If you could get Melo here and try to convince him to stay, go for it.
If you have to give up Iggy, and Melo comes for a year, then leaves, we are pretty much back to where we are now, with Turner and Holiday as the future.
I’m torn on an Iggy/Favors deal. I’m curious to see how he does this year after the USA experience and under Collins and with Turner.
Pete - So in essence you are basically saying you are fine with the prospect of watching Melo for a season and getting nothing but cap space for Iguodala?
Sure, why not? If Holiday and Turner play well enough and the fans come out, you could theoretically convince him to stay (less than 50/50).
In that scenario are we really worse off in 2011-12 than we are now? Or are we just a 9 seed instead of a 7 seed in the playoffs?
I’d say the chance of keeping Melo long term, as small as it would be, would be worth the risk.
We all keep talking about how Iggy isn’t a superstar. He’s more of a second banana. So, why not get rid of the guy who doesn’t have star potential and get a star for him in return. Even if it means giving up on some young talent. Do we really have anyone else on this team that has star written all over him? If someone told me at the same time the lebron/wade/bosh fiasco was going on that the Sixers would be in the mix to get Melo I would have taken that in a heartbeat. I like Iggy as a player but I would rather have Melo even more. Looking at Denver, they have Melo, Billups and Nene with a young Lawson. That’s it really. I’m sure they want to get younger and not lose Melo for nothing. Send them Iggy/Thad and a future pick for Melo its worth the risk.
Pete – Two things…
1. This is the debate that always comes up with Iguodala because he isn’t a typical very good player whose contributions are highly visible in terms of points scored.
I personally think his value is underrated but I focus that opinion on what I know about basketball production beyond boxscore statistics. He is extremely productive and that directly correlates with wins. Take him out of the equation and don’t replace it and this team becomes one of the worst teams in the NBA in my opinion, not a 9th seed.
The we saw the same thing happen when Andre Miller left and his production wasn’t replaced and we will see what happens this season minus Sammy.
So that’s good or bad depending on how you think about it.
2. What is the “chance” we are talking about of signing Melo? I am working under the impression that Melo will outright tell the Sixers he won’t resign with them either before the trade is final or immediately upon being traded. That conversation will come up in both situations with question so I think you know immediately whether you will sign him.
Will you still gamble under that scenario? Gamble that you can do what Denver has been unable to do, not just convince him to stay, but actually change his mind that is already made up?
I think we’re all missing the real point here. If we’re able to trade Iguodala we’ll have 4 young players who could eventually become above-average to all-star calibur players on this roster who are all 23 (Speights?) or younger. Moving Iguodala now means that if Turner, Jrue, and Favors become legit all-star caliber players (which is not a long shot) in the next 3 years, we’ll have a real chance at landing a star player after Brand’s contract is up. This is how you build a foundation for a championship.
If the 6ers trade for Favors and rid themselves of Iguodala/Thad then that also means they’ll most likely end up with a top 7 pick in the upcoming draft. More young talent to add to the roster. Maybe even another big prospect to go along with Favors.
Then, after Brand’s contract is up, go for the best player on the market with an attractive young roster that could be built around said all-star. Look at the Thunder and what they’ve done. This is what the 6ers have a chance to do right now.
This trade for Favors absolutely has to get done. The 6ers have a crowded back court with no true prospects, unless you still count Speights, in the front court. Trading for Favors gives AT LEAST the combo of Jrue/Favors/Turner which can grow for the next five years as well as next year’s first-round pick and Speights to boot.
Iguodala’s value is never going to be higher than it is right now. He’s coming off a FIBA tournament in which he was the second best player on the team to Durant, and the best defensive player in the tournament.
The appealing thing about getting Favors is the potential for a core of a super-team in 3 years.
In 3 years you could be getting elite play for less than 12M combined for Turner/Favors/Jrue. No other big contracts will be on the books. That puts them in position to add 2 max contract superstars to that core through trade or FA. And that is how you can build a contender.
On the flip side Thorn has a track record of acquiring superstars in their prirm (Kidd, VC) so I could see him trying to get Melo. But I would think a trade centered around Turner/Young/Speights (which shouold trump Favors.) That would leave a core of Jrue(20), Iguodala(26) and Melo(26.) That means you win at PG/SG/SF on almost every night… but I’m not sure how you get that last piece. Maybe have Howard force his way into town
I would do a trade for Favors but with our new coach’s praise of Iggy and Thad, I wonder if he would want to part with them in a Carmelo trade. Tk, your scenerio would be the perfect storm. My question is do the Knicks have things we want to facilitate a trade of Melo to there? A Mozgov, Gallinari [ compliment to Turner] , Curry’s expiring contract, and another piece from Denver or N.York may work in an Iggy deal also. I hope Thorn explores all options if a move is made.
Dannie -
1. I like Iggy just fine. But with him as our best player, he’ll make this team just good enough to be a fringe playoff team and just bad enough to not get a top-3 pick (last year’s eddie jordan fiasco excluded). I like him, but if he is our centerpiece, we will (likely) toil in mediocrity. In the NBA, you want to be a contender or flat out horrible with a chance to get a LeBron, Duncan, Iverson, Shaq, etc… If you are in the middle, you stay in the middle (esp when you have no cap room).
2. As long as the chances are better than 0%, I’m all for it. Maybe Holiday and Turner are better than we think this year. Maybe Thad turns it up. Maybe Speights gets his ass in line. Maybe the fans get super pumped and pack the stadium. Maybe we surprise and get a top-5 seed in the playoffs. Maybe Melo realizes Philly is pretty darn close to NYC anyway. If he doesn’t? Then we keep building around Jrue and Turner and get a great draft pick in 2012 and Brand’s contract off the books after that season.
I get the other point of view and don’t necessarily disagree with it. I’m just at a point with the Sixers where it’s getting old being in the middle. We are 348-390 since the ’01 Finals. Blah.
Pete,
When do teams ever get fair value for their superstars? If you believe that the Nets are the front-runners for Carmelo, how is their package any better than what I’ve proposed? I think if the draft was done again today, Evan Turner would still be #2 on most teams’ draft board, regardless of his summer league performance.
While I do love Carmelo’s game, I’m not sure he is what we need or want in terms of leadership and personality. That’s my only hangup with a potential deal.
Sorry, that was meant as a reply to Dannie.
Just caught a great stat on Mike and Mike on ESPN:
Cole has 5 consecutive wins with an ERA of .49.
The first string of 5 wins with a sub .50 ERA since Lefty did it in (I believe) ’82
The only other pitcher to do it this season was Tim Hudson.
That should be “First Phillie since Lefty” and not “first pitcher since Lefty”
Ok, not awake yet, didn’t realize I was posting comments on a Sixers post.
I apologize.
If only the sixers were worthy of generating passion like the Phillies are right now. I distinctly remember when their roles were reversed.
Raro - I think you are missing the point entirely of this post and my opinion.
I never said the Sixers couldn’t offer a better deal than the Nets. They probably could. We have Thad, Speights, Turner at the least in young pieces we should be okay with trading (I don’t want to trade Jrue at this point). And we have Willie, Kapono, Smith, Hawes and Batte in expiring contracts.
My point is we would give away everything we have for what? The opportunity to try and convince Melo to sign an extension with us? If he comes out and says, I am cool with going to Philly, than by all means go after him hard.
But until someone comes up with a convincing argument for him to come to Philly I think you would essentially be starting the rebuilding process by dumping players and salaries while getting nothing at all in return.
Regarding the whole Evan Turner thing. I think people are overlooking personal preference here.
You don’t know if the Nuggets simply would prefer to rebuild with a big man, especially keeping in mind Turner is not an elite shooter or athlete and Kmart is a free agent and Nene has a player option for the 2011-12 season.
If they trade Melo they are starting from zero. Billups contract isn’t even fully guaranteed for 2011-12 season and JR Smith is a free agent next summer as well.
And I don’t know if they value Speights or Hawes at all compared to Favors.
But again, that’s all besides the point. If Melo comes out and says “NO” I will not sign with you – isn’t all this pointless?
Dannie,
I understand the pointless question. I think it’s a given that we only make the trade if Carmelo agrees to the extension.
As for him wanting to come here, TK76 already mentioned the Jrue-Iguodala-Anthony-Brand core as a very attractive destination. Throw in the possibility of bringing in another top tier player with Brand’s soon-to-be expiring contract, and I think the Sixers are a nice option. Certainly better than the Knicks or Nets.
Of course, if all Carmelo cares about is playing in NYC and promoting the reality-tv career of his wife, then screw it. Then all of this is pointless.
No team would trade for Melo unless he guaranteed that he would re-sign with them. I’m simply assuming this would be part of the deal. The closest recent example I can think of where a team wound up giving away a big piece for an all star…only to see that all-star walk and it becoming a one year rental…was when Indy needed to get rid of Artest, and they trade him to Sac. for Peja (when Peja still had 80% of his health), and then Peja signed with NOrleans. But with a juggernaut top 7-8 NBA player like Melo, any team would be giving up way too much pieces to NOT have a guarantee from Melo and his agent that he would sign.
Adam Blom – “Iguodala’s trade value is never going to be higher than it is now”. I hear where you’re coming from, especially with Iguodala coming off a nice contribution to the USA team, but I actually think that under D Collin’s wing for a year, and the Sixers maximizing their talent, Iguodala’s stock will likely rise as the season goes on and he (let’s !@#$ing pray) pulls a Josh Smith and gets away from his jumpshooting ways.
Tk76 – “Potential for a super core in 3 years: Jrue/Turner/Favors”. I’m glad you used the word potential, because I think it’s important for all of us to remember that in this late 00′s era of one-and-done players, it is very hard to predict which players will come to fruition. I really don’t think any of us right now are able to predict how good Jrue will be…is he a future all star, or just an above average PG that plays good D and can shoot, but is not a great team leader? Are any of us banking on what Evan Turner can do after that summer league? (for the record, I generally fall in the “summer league isn’t that noteworthy” category, but that really was an abysmal performance). And Derrick Favors, while having great physical tools and is a willing defender and worker, has a HUGELY raw offensive game. People have no idea if this guy is walking double double defensive/rebounding beast waiting to happen, or just a mediocre all athlete guy with not that much talent.
I’m just saying…before we go bananas and trade Iguodala, where at least we KNOW what he can do…for a core of Jrue/Turner/Favors…we have to temper expectations. Personally, I’d be trying to get Melo, a known offensive juggernaut, rather than try to step into a 3-way to land the raw, unpolished in every way 19 year old. If I’m the Nuggets, I’d look very seriously at:
Sixers get:
-Melo
Nuggets get:
-Iguodala
-Speights or Thad
-Future 1st rounder or 2
(I’d also think Lou Williams is being under-talked about as a trade prospect).
DaveT, I think you are missing the crux of my point… I am NOT saying Favors/Jrue/Turner will be some type of Big 3 on their own. I’m saying they account for only 12M of cap space, and can be great complementary pieces around some big ticket superstars (down the road.)
Brand’s contract expries in 3 years. Jrue, Favors and Turner each have the potential to be very good NBA players in 3 years time- for a sum total of 12M in salary. That is 4M less than Iguodala and 10M less than Melo will make individually in 3 years. Add to that a couple of more high lottery picks (due to truly going young) and you have the chance for a very good core of inexpensive young players and a huge chunk of cap space.
The key is in 3 years Brand and Lou come off the cap (nearly 25M combined salary.) So best case you now have a gigantic amount of cap space and a core of 3-5 good-great players still on their rookie scale deals. That means you can add one or two max-contract superstars (say Dwight Howard and Josh Smith, who will both be FA that summer.) Now you are in position to contend for 4+ years.
And worse(unlikely) case, if Turner/Jrue/Favors end up being mediocre players then you still have a ton of cap space and are in a position to rebuild.
On this flip side, if you comit to Melo at 20M+/yr, you are locked in… potentially locked into a mediocre roster. I can see it working if you had Jrue/Iguodala/Melo, because then you are only 1 dominant big away… but Jrue/Turner/Melo might not get you past 45 wins.
Iggy for Favors?…….that’s a really dumb idea…………jeez, know anything about basketball at all…….talk about setting the team back for 3 years.>>>
So you are saying you wouldn’t trade Iggy for Favors or the 3rd or 4th pick in the draft next year, which is essentially the Favors deal? I course the Nets would have to throw in some expiring scrubs to make it work. I think you are the only one in the world who wouldn’t make that trade. The sixers and every other GM would do that in a heartbeat. HEck, the sixers used I think the 6th pick overall to get him.
Iggy tries hard but he just isn’t a game-changer type of player. We have been through this. His contract isn’t horrible but you need to get rid of it to really rebuild. I hate to admit it but I still remember Dick Vitale the day we drafted Iggy saying it was not a good pick. He said he would be a dime-a-dozen wing player without a true position in the league. He said he needed to stay in school and develop his jumper. The man could not have been more spot-on.
And How does that set us back 3 years? Where are we now – we are already at the bottom. Even if it does, what exactly is it setting us back from. Where do you expect to be in 3 years with this dreck?
Everyone needs to stop calling him “Iggy.” Iguodala said he doesn’t like it plus it’s the worst nickname ever. The last dude’s name is Iguodala. Why does he need a nickname?
He needs a nickname so we don’t have to spell out his last name every time.
I’ve never heard of an athlete rejecting a nickname.
Phillyfan – Iguodala at the 8 or 9 spot we picked him at…you can’t ask for much of a better player. We get a borderline all-star from a largely unproven college player that had a lot of “upside”…that actually panned out well. Iguodala staying in college another year would not have improved his shooting. I think if Iguodala spent an entire year working with Steve Kerr, Dell Curry, Mitch Richmond and Reggie Miller…his shot would not improve much, the guy IMO has plateaued with his non existent shooting form. It ain’t gonna happen.
But Iguodala IS a game changer, just NOT as a primary (or IMO) secondary option, and unfortunately, our team has no primary or secondary option. He’s certainly not an “average” “run of the mill” wing player with no position, as you quoted Dick Vitale describing. ”Average” wing players don’t possess his athleticism, defensive ability, very good slashing/attacking the rim, ability to get to the line, selfless play, and passing skills.
You are that convinced from watching Favors at G-Tech, a guy that is incredibly raw, unpolished, and severely lacking in offensive skill on the block…that we immediately give up a legit, top 5-7 SF in the NBA for a 6’10 raw athlete? I’m not saying Favors won’t be great, I’m just saying “I don’t know”, and I think anyone that is banking on Favors being this 10 time all star stud is way overhyping what he’s shown us in his one collegiate year. But don’t go saying “Every GM in the WORLD!” would automatically trade a proven SF like Iguodala for a young, raw talent. That’s a 50/50 call IMO.
Tk – Good response to my earlier post, I see what you are getting at.
Adam Blom – Calling him “Iggy” is better than AI2, no?
If the opportunity presents itself for the Sixers to get Favors in a deal for Iguodala, Ed Stefanski NEEDS to pull the trigger. The fact of the matter is that Iguodala is our number one option. In reality, Iggy is a secondary-type player who could truly shine only if surrounded by better players to feed off. I would even go so far as to say he could be a multiple all star on a championship contending team because that role suits his playing style, athleticism, and true star potential the best.
In the 4 years left on his contract, why would any outside free-agent or player demanding a trade in their right mind want to come to Philly? There is no incentive for them to want to come here (i.e. Melo). Because of the combination of Iggy and Brand’s contracts, the team won’t even be able to afford one of these premiere players for the next 4 years — who wouldn’t even consider coming here — anyway.
The Sixers got a steal in Holiday in a point-guard-stacked draft class, and got lucky with the lottery last year which resulted in Turner. In my opinion, these are the only 2 players on the roster with the POTENTIAL to be starters on a championship caliber team, meaning every single other Sixer is meaningless to me, or expendable. (I could see Thaddeus as a 6th man on a championship team and Speights and maybe Lou Williams as contributing bench players). Holiday and Turner are ages 20 and 21, respectively. By trading a 26 year old Iggy now, whose stock is as high as it will ever be because of his performance in the FIBA tournament, the Sixers could:
Dumping his salary alone is important in itself. I wouldn’t even say that he is “overpaid” because on contender he is worth every bit of the remaining 4 years/50-some million dollars. But with us, that time and salary prevents ever signing anyone better, and, more importantly, it must be accepted that the Sixers are not winning until that contract expires anyway.
By trading Iggy and whatever other pieces, the Sixers would get Favors — a third player with the potential to be a starter on a championship team.
Additionally, Favors has big time star potential and is a big man — something the Sixers definitely need and would address in the upcoming draft anyway. The trade would essentially eliminate a year of waiting and hoping to get a top 5 big-man. And Favors is the same age range as Holiday and Turner. Among the three, at least one will probably develop into an all star and they will grow together and make each other better. These 3, along with future draft picks/signing, is what will either be enough to compete for a title or at least eventually attract a “Melo” situation down the road.
Assuming the trade is done, the Sixers would have: Holiday – 20, Turner – 21, Favors – 19, Thaddeus – 22, Speights 23, and, of course, Elton Brand, 31.
Brands contract expires prior before the 2013-2014 season. So by then Holiday – 23, Turner – 24, Favors – 22, Thddeus – 25, Speights – 26…All entering their primes…. Plus whatever players we draft in the upcoming years….. If the Sixers want to some day win a championship they NEED to make this deal instead of staying mediocre forever!!!
And, if Favors ends up sucking, I still love the trade.
Iguodala’s contract will be gone, and the team will suck so it will get top picks as a consolation prize.
If the trade goes down, the best thing that could happen, anyway, is the Sixers have the worst record in the NBA next year and simply add another possible star piece. It’s better than being a 6-8 seeded, mediocre middle of the pack team year in an year out.
I am willing to be the absolute worst team every year until the right pieces are put in place, or at least every year until Brand’s contract is up. It can’t be any more unbearable than how things have gone for god knows how long anyway…
I think he prefers Andre or Dre as a nickname.
“Clank” has a ring to it.
“Engine#9″ could apply, sputteringly.
Sixers still not listed as a preferred landing spot for Melo.
Not really surprising. I’d be curious to see how Melo and his camp would react to say the Sixers making a strong offer that the Nuggets like. Will he be vocal about his intentions to resign or not, or will he say nothing and just bounce when he is an unrestricted free agent.
So call him ‘Dre or something. Iguodala really isn’t that hard to type. He twittered the words “dear NBA; stop calling me “iggy”. It seriously makes him sound like a cartoon. It’s the worst nickname ever.
Adam - Are you Iguodala’s publicist or something, jeez. Get over it. People are going to call him whatever they want.
It beats “Stinky.” Or “Heyyou.” He shouldn’t complain.
Until IGGY can make his jump shot on the regular and increase his free throw average to above 80% I’m going to call him IGGY. When his jumper falls on a regular basis and his free throw % goes up in line with a top 5-7 SF in the NBA I’ll call him whatever the heck he wants.
However I’m not the biggest fan of trading him for Favors. Melo or bust. The Sixers have enough young talented big men. Hawes, Speights, Thad who plays the 4, already. Melo at 6’9 is a game changer. Does everything offensively that IGGY can’t do. The floor would open up for Jrue to penetrate and dish at will. Add the excitement of having him here would sell out Wachovia or whatever it is on a nightly basis. Time to superstar up Sixers
haha Dannie this is the first time I’ve ever brought it up!! It used to not bother me but since I’m at libertyballers so much (because they have daily 6er stories, not because I don’t love you), it’s really started to bother me.
In all seriousness though; if the 6ers don’t make a move with Iguodala while they can I’m going to be really disturbed, because as we all know he’s not going to resign again with a franchise that isn’t going anywhere. Which they won’t be when his contract is up unless they get another star in the draft. Moving Iguodala for Favors would benefit this team’s future much greater than keeping him at this point. It basically guarantees a top 5 pick in the upcoming draft, in which you can either draft a wing player to go along with Turner/Holiday, or if Speights doesn’t work out this year, draft a PF/C to accompany Favors. It’s what makes the most sense for this franchise. NOT TO MENTION THE CAPSPACE!!
I don’t understand why everyone isn’t all in for this trade. SF and SG is the position of superstars. They make or break championship teams. When you need a game winning shot, the best teams give the ball to their sg/sf. Iguodala isn’t the guy to go to for the last shot in a game. If you want a player that fills up the stat sheet, get a PF or a C that does so; not a SF or SG. They’re the ones that need to be able to make the big plays at the biggest times.
I’m ready to see a young team, and I’m sick of being ousted in the first round of the playoffs or barely missing them. The only reason it didn’t happen last year is because our coach’s IQ was lower than his braces count. I’m ready to see young bucks developing before my eyes. I want a new generation for this team!!
RRose: The 6ers have enough talented big men? Are you kidding me?
Just wait until you see how bad the frontcourt is going to be this year without Sammy D bringing the D every night. They have nothing – ABSOLUTELY NOTHING – in terms of interior defense. Brand averaged like 6 boards a GAME last year, and I’m not looking up the stat to confirm this because I know what I saw and I know he can’t board at all whatsoever. Speights has proven ZILCH in his career, and couldn’t even dominate in the summer league. He also doesn’t know the meaning of the word “pass.” Sure Spencer has some talent with the ball in his hands and on his jumpshot, but he’s horrid defensively and can’t board to save his life. Just like Brand.
If it wasn’t for the frontcourt being so gawdawful this team would have a decent chance to hit around the 6 seed in the playoffs this year. Thing is no one wants that, so they moved Sammy D in order to try to hit the lottery with Spencer (which isn’t going to happen ALA Jason Smith). I mean c’mon son; you seriously think that this frontcourt has “potential??” This frontcourt has the potential to put out two bench bigs. Maybe Speights can get his head out of his buttox and become a half decent starter, but to say that the 6ers have potential in the frontcourt is just a joke. Thad is not a PF either. He can’t matchup with big guys that play at the 4. No way. Thad vs Josh Smith? Good joke. Thad vs. Amare? Good joke. Thad vs David Lee? Good joke.
Adam – I agree big time that our frontcourt is the huge obvious weakness of our team, but I wouldn’t be so quick to write off Speights. He brings some big positives to the table, namely the guy has an actual low post, back to the basket big man game with pretty good footwork, and is also effective operating from the high post area, having a nice jumpshot from the 13-15 foot range. He’s shown the ability to put up points in bursts offensively, and has far quicker hands than your average frontcourt player. He is also athletic and can run the floor well as a legit, beefy 6’10′er. I’m also not sure why you’re dogging his rebounding, which he’s shown to be effective at (defensively, at least) both at Florida and his years with the Sixers. I don’t think it’s a stretch that, in 2 years, if given 30+ minutes, he could average 18 pts & 10 rbs. With that said…
The GLARING problems, as you touched on, is:
-He is a total black hole on offense, a la Zack Randolph before his Grizzlies breakout last year, and has an awful court awareness and not a good bball IQ.
-His on ball defense is awful.
…those are two HUGE problems in grooming an up and coming PF…largely the same problems a guy like Amare Stoudemire has, and obviously Amare is about 20x the player Speights is offensively. No doubt that this is a huge negative, and I’m hoping Collins can inject some defensive spark and effort into his butt, and hide his on ball deficiencies with a good team defensive scheme. But I wouldn’t come down on him as hard as you did, especially given the fact we had a crackhead as a coach last year with player rotations that effectively killed the confidence of both Brand AND Speights with EJ’s completely nonsensical subbing in/out and sitting people on a whim.
But yeah, I largely agree with your point about our frontcourt. RRose, our frontcourt right now are a bunch of weak pussy-willows, and I agree with Adam that we will be missing Dalembert’s defense big time.
Adam defense is about effort. Sammy wasn’t a very good on the ball the defender but great at help defense. Funny how we consider him such a great defensive player yet he stayed in foul trouble most of the time. On the bench because he would pick up 2 quick silly fouls. Sure you can say Speights can’t defend or rebound but do we really know that? He was a no show last season, coaches DNP or his own lack of will to be in top NBA shape. Ask yourselves how many Sacramento games did you see to evaluate Hawes and his ability to defend? Sammy got criticized just as much as a Sixer but all of a sudden were sad to see him go. Maybe we’ll be just as happy to see Hawes after a few games
Dave T. I’m hoping Collins has this team ready to create havoc on the defensive end. That’s possible. Some of these same players were on this team and good defensively just 2 seasons ago. Now they’re Pussy-willows. Better coaching can fix those problems. You only have to play defense for 24 seconds. If that.
lol bacxk and forth is pretty funny.
it aint exactly new news but Melo on the move to Jersey.
RRose
Your argument has no validity at all. Dalembert was a good on the ball defender as a center and the cornerstone of our help defense. None of the players you mention have the length or shot blocking capability of Dalembert. None. The only way this team performs well defensively (and they will) is on the perimeter with Jrue, Turner, and Iguodala. The interior defense is going to be horrid. The only reason Sammy D would get into foul trouble so often is because he was the only one who could protect the basket and he knew it. None of the players we have now in the frontcourt have a high upside on the defensive end. NONE. Samuel Dalembert was (I believe) second in the NBA in blocks last year, even while he rode the pine due to foul trouble. I saw Hawes play in college and we’ve all seen Speights play the last couple years. They just don’t play help defensive well on the interior or at all for that matter. In order to be a plus interior defender you either have to be able to block/alter shots consistently, which none of them do well, or be a big enough body to keep slashers/opposing big men out of the lane, which none of them are.
To say that the interior defense for the 76ers will be anything better than poor this year is just a lie.
And you say that defense is about effort, then about three sentences later you’re talking about how Speights didn’t give effort to keep in shape last year. Right. If defense was only about effort then I’d be a top defender in the NBA right now because I work my ass off on the defensive end every single time I step on the court. Interior defense is about length/timing/athleticism/effort/smarts. You have to have at least 3 out of the 5 in order to become an above average interior defender. None of the bigs the 76ers roster right now have more than 2 of those attributes. Dalembert has 4 of those attributes.
You only have to play defense for 24 seconds? That’s a load of crap. 6ers will have below average defensive rebounding. They’re going to be playing defense a lot longer than 24 seconds OFTEN this season. Unless you’re counting on Hawes/Speights/Brand/Thad to defensive rebound. HA go look at some per 36 stats PLEASE. The only one of them that has a chance to become a half decent rebounder is Speights.
Adam the reason why Sammy was counted on to make stops so often was Lou couldn’t guard a statue. Andre Miller during his time here was abused on the defensive end. Not one guard except Iggy when he played the 2 spot could defend his man one on one. So you are absolutely incorrect. Its about dribble penetration and if you can’t stop that you’d need Wilt back there blocking shots and defending the goal. How is it that a team like Thunder can defend and be a top 5 defensive team with no shot blocker AT ALL?! Its because they sell out and play tough minded perimeter defense. It starts there. The Lakers are considered soft in the interior but are one of the better defensive teams in the NBA. Why? same reason. Kobe, Artest are two of the best lockdown defenders on the perimeter. Bynum was hurt so often you can’t consider him a defensive presence.
So Sammy was good at help defense and blocking shots sure. But he made too many bonehead decisions on both ends. Now they have what? 3 very good perimeter defenders. Jrue, Turner and Iggy. I’m willing to believe that will make them better team defensively rather than having just one shot blocker on the floor.
R.Rose, I agree totally. Look at Denver who lost Camby but added Billups who locks down opposing p.g.!s and forces his perimeter mates to step up their game. Houston played with a 6!6″ center who couldn!t jump over a phone book [C.Hayes] and was solid on the defensive end. Our coach said it right when he said our players have to keep a body on their man and if somebody is out of place defensively he will stick out like a sore thumb.
As far as rebounding, it will be an issue but the Bulls won a few rings with their 3 and 2 being the #2 and #3 rebounders on the team after H.Grant. It isn!t normal but evidently our coach wants bigs that can spread the floor and shoot and he will have to weed out the ones not willing to defend and board. For once I feel we have a coach that will.
I never said that the perimeter defense is going to be a problem. It won’t be. But teams like the Thunder REBOUND the basketball. The 6ers will not. I’m talking strictly interior defense. I never said that the 6ers won’t be a better defensive team than they were last year, because clearly they will be. I was talking strictly interior defense, which the 6ers will have none. Ibaka is a much better interior defender than anyone currently on the 76ers roster. The 6ers lost, and didn’t replace, the best interior defender and rebounder on the roster.
Suede – Yes the Bulls did that – along with one of the greatest rebounders in NBA history and two of the top 10 (including the best ever) perimeter defenders of all time, who just happened to be determined rebounders as well. Way to compare the greatest team of all time to the 6ers. Right.
Adam better perimeter defense translates into better rebounding and better interior defense. Guys won’t be out of position to rebound helping out the guards who can’t defend the perimeter. In better position defensively means better chances to get rebounds instead your defense broken down by guards. Sammy was good at a few things but he wasn’t great at anything. Good shot blocker sure but his rebounding was skewed. Teams didn’t defend him on the offensive end so he rebounded often times cause he was all alone on the offensive end. Defensively, he77 he is 6’10 and a serious athlete. He should be decent at rebounding the ball. But the rest of his tangibles and intangibles were terrible.
This is almost an entirely new team. Let’s see how the defense shapes up with coaches who actually know what they are doing. 20 games in see how the interior looks.