This is a serious question. But let me ask some follow-up questions that get at the same point.
- Does Eddie Jordan know how to coach winning basketball?
- Does Eddie Jordan know how to communicate well in general and with the players?
- Does Eddie Jordan know how to articulate his basketball thinking and decision making?
- Does Eddie Jordan know how to evaluate the players on his own team?
- Does Eddie Jordan know how to evaluate the players on the opposing team?
I was actually going to write something about how horrible the players are/have played, but then Eddie Jordan does what he does best which is follow-up a poor coaching performance with even dumber comments that takes precedent and is usually easier to write quickly.
This comes up after reading some of quotes from Jordan in Fagan’s write-up after the Timberwolves loss. Here are the cliff notes:
Question: Why did Iverson play 23 straight minutes in the second half then never got back in the game?
Eddie Jordan: “I thought he was going and they came with a surge in the third quarter and he still looked sort of refreshed out there and I wanted to run the table with him. And then I just thought we needed some bigger bodies for defense when we got back at the end.”
Does any of that make any sense to you? And his tactic for bolstering the defensive backcourt is playing Willie over Jrue? Sigh.
Question: Why didn’t Jrue play in the second half?
Eddie Jordan: “I thought Willie was good defensively and he had made some shots for us and I wanted Andre at guard so we could be a little bit bigger. Look, I wanted to run the table with Allen, he felt good, he felt great, and I thought he could get it going for us.”
Well we know Willie was not “good” defensively and while he did make 5 of his 9 shot attempts, 4 of those makes came in the second quarter.
He entered the game at the 2:47 point in the 3rd quarter and shot 1-5, including an airball three and a corner three that hit the side of the backboard. On top of that he didn’t contribute in any other area: 0 rebounds, assists, steals, blocks, turnovers and 3 personal fouls, including a horrible shooting foul committed on a Flynn jumpshot attempt on the second possession in overtime.
I half joke all the time about Jordan being completely clueless but I think this half joke is no longer a joke at all.
Reading his comments and listening to him speak just leaves me scratching my head wondering…
- What the hell did he just say?
- What the hell is he talking about?
- What the hell does that mean?
- Did he just contradict himself?
- That didn’t make any sense at all, did it?
- Is this guy a damn fool for real?
Still scratching my head!
Does Eddie know how to tie his shoes?
Stefanski better come to his senses. I don’t think I can take 3 years of this.
I’m working on a post about Stefanski’s time being up. He probably could be a decent GM given a fresh start, but I don’t think he’s the right guy to make the major decisions this franchise needs to make.
Stefanski is to personally on the hook with Brand, Jordan and some of the young players. He has comitted this team to a failed attempt to ”go uptown” and I don’t he’s in a position to right the ship and get them back on course.
Bring in a new GM, and the rest of the decisions, like firing Jordan (or at least directing him to be more of a developmental coach) becomemore straight forward.
BTW, did not mean to hijack the thread… please feel free to go back to bashing Jordan- I’m behind that 100%
Agree with tk76 1000%.
Stefanski is the dumbass that hired this dumbass. He is ultimately at fault here. Do you trust him with finding Jordan’s replacement? I sure don’t.
Do you know who Eddie Jordan reminds me of? Rich Kotite. They are living proof that borderline retarded people can be successful in this world with the right connections. Aside for George Dubbyah, of course.
Eddie Jordan’s press conference’s make Andy Reid look like a public speaking professor.
Reid giving a Sixers press conference:
“Injuries… Iverson’s knee has been bothering him a little bit out there. Our trainers are going to work on him this week, but hopefully he’ll be good to go for the Dallas game tomorrow night.
Overall we just were not getting the job done on defense, and I take full responsibility for that. We have to get the job done better out there and clean some things up on our rotations.”
Two options for Peter Luukko, and Ed Snider, (if he is still relevant): if you feel that it is in the teams best interest to make a move now, then fire both Ed Stefanski, and Eddie Jordan, replacing them with interim titles, Tony Dileo at GM: he’s smart, knows the team, is currently doing a good job, and has done so for many years. He deserves a chance, he has paid his dues. Then replace Eddie Jordan with Jimmy Lyman. Jimmy is a good coach with a lot of experience. He knows the players’ ability, can relate to them, and will be respected by everybody. At the end of the year replace Lyman with Tom Thibodeau, the guy we should have hired last spring.
However, if you feel that the best strategic move is to get the highest possible draft pick, keep both Stefanski and Jordan in place with the caveat no trades allowed, for obvious reasons. Then the day after the season ends, fire them. Unless someone great pops up, replace them with Dileo, and Thibodeau.
GM’s last longer than coaches in the NBA so while I think Stefanski has likely done enough (misguided in signing Brand and what he did afterward with regard to player personnel, hiring Jordan, not firing Jordan by now or at least completely dictating what players should be played and the strategy) to warrant being fired, I would be surprised if he was, especially when you could consider the team went to the playoffs in his first two seasons somewhat unexpectedly as 6th and 7th seeds, so it wasn’t even like they barely slide in either.
I think he would be more on the hot seat if they played poorly after he fired Cheeks last season and with all that has happened to date this year. But I have the feeling Stefanski is safe for now because his first two seasons could be portrayed as minor successes and right now could be spun as a hiccup/transition.
Also, I just wonder how much input and say Peter Luukko had in the Brand decision and Eddie Jordan hire. We know he was in on the interviews so I imagine he was there for a real authoritative reason. Who is to say he wasn 100% behind both decision which would make him very much accountable as well.
Why does Dileo deserve a chance? How do you quantify him having done a good job?
Question: Was signing Brand really the mistake? Or where the surrounding moves/lack of moves the bigger mistake?
I don’t have an answer but I have some thoughts and am working up a post on it.
Dileo does well scouting the draft. he deserves to be kept on in that capacity.
As for Stefanski- his firing is not becasue of bad moves. He needs to be fired because he is in a compromised position to make the moves this team needs to make going forward.
If you think Stefanski is secure enough to fully reverse his previous course then you can argue that he should get the chance to fix things. But I feel that asking him to go from win now to rebuild, to fuire his friend he just hired, to trade away at a loss his big signing and to trade away some of the talent he drafted without over-valuing them… is all too much to ask or expect from Stefanski.
the job that needs to be done by our GM wioud be so much easier for someone coming in with a clean slate.
Dannie, what is the least costly option? Because that is probably their main concern, I hate to say. But maybe they get the right guy in spite of that. A hungry young assistant [Turner] , a guy with no experience [Snow] or a guy away from the game [ unknown] ? I don!t think E.S. is going anywhere if he acts quickly to correct his mistake.
Is no one willing to consider the possibility that the franchise really is intentionally (but somewhat discreetly) tanking? Maybe they’re way smarter than we’re giving them credit–by which, I mean, they’ve determined/accepted that the roster is so talent-deficient, so poorly constructed, that it needs a top 5 draft pick.
Can’t say I’ve decided as much myself, but it might explain the really poor in-game line-ups, rotations, and substitutions.
Hobbes – That would be a consideration if a top 3-5 pick was guaranteed and the expected draft class consisted of more than one perceived elite player.
Since neither is the case I don’t think them tanking is a realistic possibility.
I posted a more detailed take on the need to fire Stefanski at Derek’s site:
As for “tanking”, I doubt they are trying to lose. Tanking usually involves putting in inexperienced players a key times and letting them learn through taking hard knocks. Jordan has done the opposite. he has ridden the vets (AI, Green, Iguodala) at the expense of minutes for the young guys in a misguided attempt to steal some wins. The irony lies in the fact that playing AI and Green as your backcourt for long stretches actually has a tanking effect.
If one’s answer to the question posed above is an unequivocal negative, then it follows, just as strongly, that the longer-in-place GM does not know how to effectively populate his front office staff and courtside bench. The 13-27 standing and team incoherence is a dovetailed package deal.
Tony Dileo has been in charge of our draft for years, and, in my opinion, has done a very good job. Considering that his highest pick was 9th, and the others were in the middle to high teens, he has brought in several good young players with high upside. Both BillyKing and Stefanski have spoke highly of his ability. As our coach last year, I thought he did a very creditable job. After watching and listening to him, I came away with the impression that he knows the game, is smart and logical.
No one knows how anyone will do in a job, until he is actually doing it, until then it’s just speculation. After being with the organization so many years, and preforming well, I see know problem in giving him a chance, why not?
I would bring in someone from a winning organization that has shown stability and success built around defense. I would keep DiLeo (and probably McKie) as the inside guys to help the transition. You can even make DiLeo assitant GM if you need to keep him on board as your draft guy (becasue othr teams liely will try and steal him during the transition.)
L.A. Steve – “why not”
Two simple reasons:
Following up on this Dileo talk…
IF he has been “in charge” of the draft why then did the organization pass on Dirk and Pierce to draft Larry Hughes based 100% on a promise made by Larry Brown?
In my opinion that is a colossal, organization-screwing decision that has been haunting us for years.
If Dileo was GM material he doesn’t allow that to happen under any circumstances, under his watch as lead draft guy. He goes over Brown’s head if he had to, but made sure the Sixers maximized that pick and didn’t blow it on a f’ing handshake agreement.
On top of that, my understanding is he has been in the organization since 1990. That means he was at least a scout, if not already director of scouting for:
On top of even that, he was heralded as a guy with a lot of international basketball experience yet we have not had one meaningful international player on the Sixers that I can remember at least.
The myth of Tony Dileo is great apparently. He’s done okay, and certainly has had opportunities to do better if he has a real say in draft choices and roster sculpting.
usually some coaches dont know how to articulate themselves well. this is not the case here. if you judge him by his actions on the court alone, minus the idiosyncratic speech, he would still seem like an idiot. which leaves me to conclude that EJ coaches based on his “instinct”. he makes key decisions based on that; it would accurately explain both the irregular substitutions, apportioning of minutes, line-ups etc. and the fact that he cannot express clearly what he is trying to do.
you know… its really hard to explain something that is non-logical but based on feel and gut instincts.
we need a GM who is not attached to any of these players. no Iguodala love, no Lou is a starter, or Thad and Speights get regular minutes even if their defense sucks. none of that. just someone who will come and make cold, hard cuts to this roster.
whatever we have left, we may not like but at least we will have a better team.
On the recent drafts, I’d note that we’ve also been shooting for the moon with ultra-young talent, hoping it pays off big-time down the road. And in Williams, Young, and Speights (and, I suppose, Holiday) we’ve received players who are rather serious projects with very limited basketball IQs. Was Miller referencing this when he mentioned in an interview for our last game with Portland, when he suggested that “right now [our guys are] getting taught, basically, how to play college basketball. Passing and cutting and stuff like that”??
I won’t say we’ve drafted horribly. It’s a guessing game. But I do detect a pattern in the last few years and I do see players with quite a few commonalities (long on athleticism, short on fundamentals; position hybrids; generally lacking in ’attitude department’; etc.) that seem to lend to the painfully homogeneous look of the roster.
Dannie:
You’re really basing that off of a lot of unknowns, including his role with the organization, how much say he wielded, and his opinions on the selected players.
If y0u look at the teams draft selectsions since he was promoted to director of player personnel (1999) and Assistant GM (2003), they’ve been consistently good in my opinion. It’s really hard to complain about missing out on Carlos Boozer when every team in the league missed out on him. Speedy Claxton? Yeah, it was questionable because of his size, but it was the 20th pick in the draft.
Meanwhile, we’ve gotten a starter at #26, a starter at #45, a semi-starter (Green) at #50, and future starters (IMO) at #16 (Speights) and #17 (Holiday).
If Speedy Claxton is your biggest gripe at #20 you’re doing a pretty darned good job. Every team in the league could go through their draft history and find misses such as that.
I don’t consider either Holiday or Young to have limited basketball IQ’s. And the fact that they’re all contributing in their first year with respect to where they’ve been picked shows perhaps they weren’t as big of projects as we thought.
Untapped potential? Sure. Neither has reached their ceiling. Project? Not really. They could all contribute before they reached their ceiling.
Iguodala started from the get-go. Young and Holiday started at some point during the year (with quite a few arguing Holiday should be starting now). Speights was a contributor his first year. I’m not sure I agree.
They may not have been projects like say Sam or Lou… but they all had glaring holes in their games.
Entering the league:
Jrue: raw as a scorer, shooter and finisher
Young: raw as a wing player. Without a good handle or a good feel for defending the perimeter.
Speights: Poor fundamental defender or defensive rebounder.
Iguodala: Entered the NBA without a jumpshot or polished scoring game
I guess rookies all have weaknesses to their game. But the Sixers definetely choose the upside players that are rough around the edges over the more polished, NBA ready guys with less upside.
Given they typically are drafting between 9-21, this is probably the right approach.
Derek – You’re a bit confused.
This conversation was derived from a previous poster explicitly giving credit to Dileo for being the driving force behind the Sixers draft history and suggesting that said history has earned him the opportunity to be the teams GM. My stance started with a capital and bolded “IF” which I thought got the point across that Dileo’s contributions are largely unknown.
But I went along with it under the assumption that Dileo gets much of the credit.
Now about your second point. Sam is a starter. Willie is not at all. Lou is not at all. Jrue may be. Speights should be. That’s my opinion, whether our franchise is forced to stick weaker players in a starting capacity or not. Hell I am not 100% sold on Thad as a starter at this point.
That’s neither here nor there for me. I fully understand the luck factor of the draft and all you can really do is position yourself for some good luck.
Speedy Claxton was just a dumb pick – period, but no where was it said that’s my biggest gripe. I think the biggest gripe is very clear here.
The defining drafting moment for this franchise in the last 20 years is still the Hughes pick and that would put Dileo roughly 8 years with the franchise so I am thinking he has at leas a bit of juice if his primary role is in scouting at this point in his career. The choice was between three guys Hughes, Pierce and Dirk. Given Dileo’s perceived ability to scout and international experience I can’t see how we get this one wrong.
And I understand Brown likely had much of, if not all the power but when talking about Dileo as a GM prospect I think that particular draft pick would be one he would have to stake his career on.
Yup, but where are the gems to counter-balance the scale? That’s the problem.
I thought DiLeo advocated Pierce but Brown over-ruled and they took Hughes?
I think the Sixers have done a decent job of avoiding horrible players (save Shawn Bradley and Tim Thomas considering there draft positions).
And they typically draft who they should draft when with their middling picks.
Sammy was probably their best low first round pick and I have been unimpressed with the rest of their late picks.
But they certainly haven’t picked up hidden gems at all when there were opportunities to do so.
According to ESPN that makes them a top 10 drafting team the last 20 years.
Meh.
Brown said publicly he promised Hughes he would pick him because he didn’t think there was any way Pierce would be there when the Sixers picked.
When Pierce fell, Brown wouldn’t go back on that promise. That’s the organizations fault in general.
Question: What about Dirk though? Where was he rated on the Sixers board? Where was Dileo’s international expertise there?
Does anyone remember the main stream media or draft experts ranking between Dirk and Hughes?
From Wikipedia:
“Abroad, Nowitzki’s progress did not go unnoticed. In 1996, FC Barcelona Bàsquet wanted to sign him, but Nowitzki refused to move before finishing his German A-levels.[15] A year later, the teenager participated in the Nike “Hoop Heroes Tour”, where he played against NBA stars like Charles Barkleyand Scottie Pippen. In a 30-minute show match, Nowitzki outplayed Barkley and even dunked on him, causing the latter to exclaim: “The boy is a genius. If he wants to enter the NBA, he can call me.”[16]On March 29, 1998, Nowitzki was chosen to play in the Nike Hoop Summit, one of the premier talent watches in U.S. men’s basketball. In a match between the U.S. talents and the international talents, Nowitzki scored 33 points on 6-of-12 shooting, 14 rebounds and 3 steals for the internationals[3] and outplayed future US NBA stars Rashard Lewis and Al Harrington. He impressed with an array of quickness, ball handling, and shooting range, and from that moment on a multitude of European and NBA clubs wanted to recruit him.[17]
[edit]Dallas Mavericks (1998–present)
[edit]Difficult start (1998–99)
After leading DJK Würzburg to promotion and his Abitur and military service behind him, Nowitzki looked to the NBA for his future. Projected to be seventh pick in the 1998 NBA Draft, he passed up many college offers and leapt directly into the NBA as a then still rare prep-to-pro player.[18] In particular Rick Pitino and Don Nelson, head coaches of the Boston Celtics and Dallas Mavericksrespectively, were highly interested in acquiring him. After a 45-minute private workout with Pitino, where Nowitzki showcased his versatile shooting, rebounding and passing skills, the Boston coach immediately compared him to Celtics legend Larry Bird; Pitino assured Nowitzki that he would draft him with the Celtics’ first-round draft pick at number ten.[19]
However, Pitino’s plan was foiled by Nelson, whose team had the sixth pick. Nelson worked out draft day deals with the Milwaukee Bucks and the Phoenix Suns: the Mavericks wanted Nowitzki and Suns reserve point guard Steve Nash; the Bucks desired muscular forward Robert Traylor, who was projected to be drafted before Nowitzki; and the Suns had set their sights on forward Pat Garrity, who was projected as a low first round pick. In the draft, the Mavericks drafted Traylor with their sixth pick, and the Bucks selected Nowitzki with their ninth and Garrity with their nineteenth pick. The Mavericks then traded Traylor to the Bucks for Nowitzki and Garrity, and they in return traded the latter to Phoenix for Nash.”
Danny: I got your point, but I thought mine was pretty clear as well. We can quantify his contributions from 1999 onward, in my opinion. Which is why my post focused on that. And I think the drafts since then have been an unqualified success.
You really think DiLeo, not an GM, not an Assistant GM, not even the director of player personnel, is going to overrule HOF coach Larry Brown, who has been given the keys to the car? Really?
IIRC King wanted Pierce, DiLeo wanted Dirk and Brown wanted Hughes.
And, again, if that’s your biggest gripe, a pick 12 years ago where he was overruled by a coach given virtual free reign, I think that shows the quality of job they’ve done in the draft.
Where are the hidden gems? I think you’re overstating the frequency of hidden gems. The Sixers have had 1 top 10 pick since DiLeo moved into a position of Authority in 1999. They hit on that player, getting a borderline all-star. To get Speights, Young and Jrue as well during the last 3 years is incredibly good respective to where they’ve drafted.
You’re 10x more likely to get a bust post-lottery than a hidden gem.
I think Sam, Green, Lou and Korver (trade) were all strtong picks. Of course they had a lot of 2nd round busts, but most 2nd rounder’s are out of the league in 3-4 years.
But they have not have a home run later pick like a Ginobli or Parker.
Also, didn’t Brown have a habit of trading away 1st round picks for the likes of Kenny Thomas? You have to have picks to be successful.
Like I said. They picked the players they were suppose to pick. I don’t think the decisions for guys like Iguodala, Thad and even Speights to a degree where difficult calls. Jrue was because there were other players to choose. Time will tell on that.
Dileo was director of scouting prior to 1999, I think that counts as well.
Regarding the hidden gems I really don’t feel like going through all the drafts, frankly I don’t really care that much, the Sixers don’t deserve that much of my energy and attention.
The Sixers win loss record to a degree speaks for itself so when evaluating Dileo post 1999. What has he really contributed to? A mediocre team working under mediocre management.
Bring in someone who at least has been working within a consistently good organization.
tk: I think there’s a difference between unfinished, unpolished and projects.
Sene was a project. Nowhere near contributing but drafted based on his physical attributes. A long shot at best to ever reach his potential.
Russell Westbrook was unpolished. But because what he was good at was so good and unique, he came in right away, contributed, and worked his way through his obvious limitations.
I don’t consider either Thad or Jrue to be projects in that sense. They have positives that allow them to see the court early in their career, despite not being fully developed, complete players. Maybe it’s semantics, but I don’t consider them projects in that sense.
I think saying “they took the players they were supposed to take” greatly undersells the job they did. In fact, I find it a little demeaning.
It may seem easy to say Iguodala was the guy they were supposed to take, and remove any credit from them for making the right selection, but let’s remember that Ben Gordon, Shaun Livingston, Josh Childress and Rafael Araujo were taken before him. They could have ended up with Luke Jackson, Robert Swift or Sebastian Telfair, all lottery picks.
The miss rate in mid-teens picks is astronomically high. Robin Lopez was drafted immediately before Speights, example. Who’s been impressed with Alexis Ajinca so far on his NBA career? I’m not even a big Speights fan, but by no means is any pick at 16 a slam dunk. Every player is flawed.
I disagree with the Directory of scouting. In fact, I really don’t like evaluating him on anything before Brown left, at least not without knowing his opinions on the players and the draft.
In the years, we’ve had more coaching changes than I can count. We’ve changed GM’s. The only thing that remains constant is continued success in the draft. I have a hard time not giving DiLeo credit for that.
Do I want DiLeo as GM? Actually, no. I have no idea how could of a negotiator is, or how well he is with the cap, or how well he deals with players. I want him to stay in the role he’s been successful at.
But what I do disagree with is denying his success in the draft.
Dileo has been hangin’ around the backwaters of the Sixers’ swampland for many a year. I think he started in the video room, though I’m not sure. Was mediocre guard on average Westhead LaSalle teams. Seems like a decent chap. Has obviously earned his keep, according to Sixers’ standards, but hasn’t exactly distinguished himself with picks like Iguodala, Williams, Young and Speights … to quote the former and late point guard of Wendy’s U., Dave Thomas: “Where’s the beef?” His head coaching stint wowed no one. In closing, Tony of Cinnaminson has served. However, change is good when an organization is stuck in the mire. Broom, please.
Derek, I wanted Lopez over Spieghts and would still swap them if given the chance. L.B. actually screwed up Charlotte by drafting a position already filled [Felton] with Augustine and passing on B.Lopez. I blame the unique size of A.I. on the Hughes pick, hoping to find the right backcourt mate [big p.g.?] . Similiar to the Holliday pick, a compliment for L.Will.?, I hope this pick works out. If this organization had a plan [defense and push the ball?] than Lopez to me fits more than Spieghts, though you would know better if the questions on Marreeses! effort level were true or valid.
You are right about the Hughes pick. And to be fair, finding the right backcourt mate for AI was a huge challenge.
As for Jrue, I don’t think Lou Williams was part of the equations. I think they were frankly shocked he dropped to them, so they picked him. I doubt he was ever “the plan.”
I was actually referring to Robin Lopez, Brook’s twin brother drafted one spot ahead of the Sixers who was with the Suns D-League team earlier this year.
Dannie,
Actually, the Hughes pick was a Larry Brown move. Larry wanted a big point guard to play along side Iverson. He had just gotten Tim Tomas the previous year so Paul Pierce wasn’t a priority. Ironically, it was reported a few years later that Tony Dileo lobbied hard for drafting Dirk but was overruled. Tony didn’t assume the position of being in charge of the draft until Larry left. As far as him not being promoted to GM before, (as this is some kind of statement about his ability), since 1996 there has only been two GM’s: Billy King ,and Ed Stefanski, so there hasn’t really been much opportunity for him.
In reading your comments about our players, apparently, you have a lower opinion of them than I do. I believe we have some young guys who have a lot of potential but need to be developed properly, and play in a good system. In my opinion, our problem is coaching, we haven’t had a good coach since Larry Brown left, that’s the root of our problem I think if we had a first rate coach things would be a lot different. Coaching is extremely important, just look at the Bobcats and the Knicks, their rosters are much weaker than ours, yet, their records are better. In my opinion, it’s the coaching.
L.A. Steve - Have you watched the Sixers play much? The players are athletic stooges. Red Auerbach or Red Holzman or “Reds” Kerr couldn’t guide them to coalescence. They’re tailor-made for Red Klotz.
Derek, I meant Robin also, as far as the Sixers. I believe he will end up a double-double guy and can be dominent defensively. Watched a lot of Pac 10 because of a man crush on K.Love and whenever Brook got in foul trouble Robin actually got the ball and was pretty effective. I!ll be shocked if him and Noah don!t have similiar careers. What was your opinion on draft night ?
As far as Robin in the D-league I think he and Spieghts should swap teams, if our organization would go back to defense and transition, our G.M.!s supposed credo. Most of the pieces are in place if Thad is replaced with a scorer willing to defend in this draft and allowed to be a 3/4 sub, but this coaching hire sure screwed that up.
tk, your right, that was the main reason but I can!t help but think size played a factor. Was Teague their second choice?
I just don’t see Robin as being a dominant defender. Or even a dominant defensive rebounder, for that matter.
Here were my thoughts on draft night:
http://blog.derekbodner.com/2008/06/30/thoughts-on-the-nba-draft/
Clear misses on Bayles and Thompson. Oopsie. Nobody bats 1.000.
Derek, good stuff; I agree about Love and Westbrook, they need the right complimentary player next to them to succeed, though Harden over Evans may bite Okl. City but they only have one ball. I agree with Dannie on our lack of finding foriegn talent and how would this result have looked on Thad!s draft night; Thad/Fernandez/C.Landry and M.Gasol, oh well !!!
As you are saying… but in detail:
#12: Young (should have had a higher pick if Miller and Joe Smith were not acquired)
#21: traded up for Smith instead of Rudy (#24), also gave up 2009 2nd round pick (Buddinger?)
#30: sold pick pick when Landry was picked #31
#42: Byars instead of Gasol (#48)
#55: Hill instead of Sessions (#56)
… Thats like a whole team of role players
Well, here are 2 more cents on the subject from a different angle.
The Iverson angle.
I don’t get the impression the 6ers have a leader. A take charge, fire in the gut leader.
Allen Iverson, in his prime, and well beyond has to be one of the most competitive, chip on the shoulder driven athletes ever.
So much so that he practically threw his career away in the last 12 months with his insistence on starting.
Since his return to the 6ers, he’s played without an ego. He passes up shots, doesn’t complain and seems as anxious to show he’s not what people think of his past more than anyone since Wilt decided to turn into an assist machine.
It’s not my place to say he’s wrong to do that. But when I think of guys like Pete Maravich and Karl Malone that burned for rings, it just seems so strange to see a guy like AI going out softly. I think I’d have rather seen him sream bloody murder for sitting out the overtime yesterday, as an example. Whether its the coach, or a veteran, somebody has to step up, and when the losing reaches the level of losing to Minnesota, and stymying whatever progress was made of late, softer schedule or not, somebody other than the fan base should be angry as hell, and using it constructively. The hell with logic. Get angry.
Anyone see any merit in that?
Well the fanbase is sure angry
, or at least whats left of it.
AI is not in a position to spout of because he was likely told he’d be cut at the first sign of misbehavior. Then AI would be stuck playing out the rest of his career like Starbury is in China.
I wish a good team would take AI, make him a key reserve and give him a chance at a ring. But I guess that is next year if/when he has sufficiently rehabbed his image and swallowed his pride.
I’m still a fan of AI, just feel he’s a better fit for another team.
tk76: I am also still a fan of AI, but he’s does not have the burning desire to win anymore. As one can read, his priority is his and his family’s personal happiness. If he cared about winning he would not be back in Phila, and he would have accepted being a bench player on a better team. He also would have kept himself in shape during his layoff.
Morty – I don’t think I can agree with that. And Ken, going out softly? I feel like that has a negative connotation to it. Why? It sounds like when he acted like that he was selfish and now that he isn’t he is soft. I don’t get it.
What reason does he have to play if not a burning desire to win? He certainly doesn’t need the money, his family is cool and physically his body is screaming at him to take it easy. If his competitive spirit and desire to win wasn’t there I don’t think he is playing right now. The best players stay too long because of it and usually end up leaving because of healthy reasons.
Instead he persists. Why?
Also, your comment suggests that he clearly had a burning desire to win in the past when he was with Philly. Couldn’t you make the same argument that he didn’t have a burning desire to win then based on the way he stubbornly chose to play?
To be clear, I know he played to win and believe he still does have a burning desire to win. I wouldn’t question that and honestly don’t know why anyone would.
I have the same feeling about A.I. now as I have in the past. He wants to win, he is just misguided in the path to do so.
When he was young, he thought he had to carry the city every game. Put up every shot in order to win. When he left Denver, he wouldn’t take a lesser role because he thought in order to win he needed to remain a focal point. The same was true just a few months ago in Memphis.
Now, I agree a bit with TK in that the situation has his hands tied a bit in terms bullishly trying to force his way into a lot of playing time.
But I also am willing to give him credit for truly realizing he can’t do that effectively anymore AND believing that he genuinely loves this town and doesn’t want to have another bad experience here.
To me that doesn’t say he doesn’t have that burn to win anymore. Just that he is going about it in a different way now.
I’m coming a little late to this party and someone may have already mentioned this but I have been seeing these posts about Mr. Snider (as he should be called) and Peter Luuko. I think its foolish to believe that those two men, especially Snider, give a hot shit about the Sixers. They are hockey guys through and through. What Mr. Snider should do is hire a Basketball Czar, like Cleveland did with Mike Holmgren in the NFL. Czar –> GM –> Coach.
Then promote Dileo, I read that idea in some of the early comments and think it’s reasonable. Then sign Thibodeau, The Skinny Van Gundy or Avery Johnson. I absolutely favor Thibodeau, they need a defensive head coach, and they need to go outside the organization to get one. Where better to look than one of the league’s best defensive squads?
Mr. Snider is a hockey guy through and through. And, as a Flyers fan, I love that. For the Flyers. As a Sixers fan its a lot like having Mr. Snuffleupagus as an owner.
In case Mr. Snider is reading this, I’d be happy to take any of the aforementioned positions at a relatively discounted rate.
I think my post on the leadership that seems to be missing should have been worded differently. It’s not that I expect Allen Iverson to necessarily be a leader based on public post game reactions. And what is revealed publicly isn’t the same as behind closed doors, just that for a loss like Mondays, I’d expect somebody to be very angry.
True, Iverson never has come across as having a clear I’m about winning approach as his top prioroty. He has clearly come across as being very competitive and motivated. It strikes me as softer that his post game quotes seemed patient with the decision not to use him in overtime compared to the
Iverson of 10 years ago. I understand that its not mandatory to go after a ring, and big picture, I can see where reurning to this mess was good decision for hm. But when you lose a game like that, and sit on the bench in the game’s key moments, it makes me wonder what goes through his mind. That’s softer than a guy who comes across as a lifelong subscriber to don’t nobody mess with my territory.
Dannie: AI certainly has a desire to to win when he is on the court, but I think his main passion right now is simply playing basketball. I believe he loves Philadelphia, and playing basketball. When I say “winning” I am referring to a championship. There have been several quotes from AI that the most important thing to him right now is that he is “happy.”
I do agree with you that AI never quite knew how to win.
With all the mess in Sixerland, Phil Jasner put out yet another useless article today.
Basically, Dannie, my sense is that AI has mellowed to the point where, although he is still competitive and loves playing basketball, he is placing a championship in perspective.
… like “it ain’t happenin’, no way, no how, while I wear these duds.”
Quote by A Miller discussing the Sixers
“You take certain things for granted,” Miller said. “[The NBA] is getting younger and younger. You need solid veterans, whether it’s a point guard or a big man, who can help the young guys out. That’s not a slap in the face at the young guys; older guys can also offer a little bit of knowledge here and there.”
E Jordan and the Sixers didn’t think there was a need for a veteran PG or a good PG in this system. With A Miller this team has about 7-10 more wins than they do now. He wasn’t great defensively but neither is Lou, or Willie G or Ai. How can so many things go wrong in one half a season? Why anyone thought the Princeton offense would work with athletic runners and jumpers with no outside shot was ridiculous. I don’t think he’s running that offense now. They post up, pick and roll or isolate players more than anything. So what offense are they running? the Mo Cheeks?
I want to clear something up on NBA offense.
NBA offense isn’t what people think it is. I think when people talk about offense they assume it’s some drawn up rigid play with player movement and ball movement. That’s certainly a broad way to define it but that’s what it is. Player movement, screening and ball movement with the goal of getting players in good scoring situations. That’s it.
Some offenses are very robotic and rigid: flex
Some or more fluid and intuitive: Princeton
And some are just basic: isos, pick and roll/[pop, low post entry and cut through.
If you watch a lot of NBA, of those three types of offenses how many teams’ dominate offense ISN’T basic pick and roll/pop, isos and post entry?
Not very many. That’s why people on the college level lump those threes offensive situations together as “pro style offense” because that’s what the pros rely on.
Sure there are wrinkles (baseline and pindown screening for shots in the short corner and elbow area for example) added team-t0-team but for the most part teams are running pick and roll, isos and low post entry.
In my opinion the Sixers team as currently constructed shouldn’t be running a Princeton offense anyway. They don’t have enough good passers across all positions and they don’t have smart enough players to make the right reads and cuts.
And for any offense you need a player (doesn’t necessarily have to be a point guard, but probably a perimeter player) who is a playmaker and can dictate the action with and without the ball and be the leader on the floor.
“And for any offense you need a player (doesn’t necessarily have to be a point guard, but probably a perimeter player) who is a playmaker and can dictate the action with and without the ball and be the leader on the floor.”
Agree. Some elite wing players like Kobe, M.J. and Lebron can be the defacto “point” that keeps the offense flowing. But these are pretty special players. Even top guys like Wade, AI and Roy seem to do better when paired with a player who assumes the bulk of the PG responsibility (I guess you can say the same about Lebron.)
Big men basically can’t assume this role. And I also feel Iguodala, for all his strengths, is ill suited to take this role. He is a good assist guy, but he is not a point forward. maybe Stefanski assumed he could be?
I’d put Iguodala’s level to create at about the level that Sean Elliot was at on some great teams. But despite his skills they did not have him play “point forward.” It was a strange decision to enter this year without a PG.
TK – I don’t think Wade or Roy do better with someone who handles the bulk of the PG responsibilities. In fact, all the talk has been exactly the opposite of that in Portland with regard to Roy and Andre Miller. Roy wants the rock and having Blake as the spot up option works best. Miller without the ball is a waste on the court so the Roy/Miller backcourt hasn’t gelled well thus far and often times McMillian is playing Miller when Roy gets his rest which is just good coaching.
It’s okay is some default PG brings the ball up, but once they get into the grit of their half court offense Wade, Roy, Kobe, LeBron, MJ etc. are the dominate playmaker on the floor and they all are best served being off-set not by pure point guards, but by spot up shooting point guards.
That again is because pro offense is all about pick and roll, isos and post ups. The player involved is always your best offensive player – sometimes that is the point guard (Nash, Paul, Williams) and sometimes in very rare cases it could be both a perimeter playmaker and a pg (Billups and Melo).
Could probably throw in Joe Johnson as a non PG who is the primary perimeter playmaker, with Bibby being a very good spot up option and sometimes a good pick and roll partner.
Pierce, late in games is the dominate perimeter playmaker and Boston actually loves to go SF/PG pick and roll (especially when House is in the game) to get the smaller guy on Pierce.
Agree, it was a strange (= dumb) decision to run primarily without a PG given we don’t have a strong half court offensive perimeter playmaker.
Blame that on Stefanski for getting duped by Eddie Jordan’s BS whiteboard talk in his interview I guess.
from the thorpe chat on espn…
Jrue Holiday (Philly)
Why aren’t I starting and what do you think my ceiling is in this league as a starting PG?
David Thorpe
(12:56 PM)
I think you will be a long time starter. Maybe not an all-star, too early to tell. But very solid for years.
Jrue should not be venting his frustrations to the media like that
I always thought B.Walton was the one big that filled the main faccilitator role, but he was a special case and that mold was definitely broken.
tk76: re: Jrue – well he’s a kid, would be worried if he showed too much maturity.
at 24 years of age, I would do much worse damage once I opened my mouth, if I was in his situation.
jkay: I’d be shocked if that was actually Jrue.
And he’s 19, not 24.
yeah honestly an NBA player on blogs and chats?? the question didnt seem right either, but you never know with these things, some ppl get bored, same way some players read reports on themselves.
by 24, was referring to myself.
Can someone please explain why Jordan hasn’t been fired ?
Mo Cheeks goes .391 in 23 games and gets fired
DiLeo goes .542 and is fired (not renewed)
Jordan is .325. My math tells me he is doing a worse job than the prior two coaches (both released) and yet retains his job. What gives ?
His BFF is the GM.