… before you fire Eddie Jordan?
Serious question.
I want to know what the criteria is for firing a coach. Where is the breaking point?
8 losses in a row? Check. 9? Might be checking this tomorrow. 10? 15? (not if A.I. has anything to say about it)
28th ranked defense that is getting progressively worse? Check. And that’s before Iverson has played a game.
28th ranked defensive rebounding team? Check.
Not playing one PF/C more than 30 minutes per game. Check. Particularly, not playing the guy you blew your load on two off-seasons ago and effectively pissing him off. Check.
Playing Willie Green 41 minutes, more than any other player, and keeping a straight face while justifying it? Check.
Eddie Jordan, your coach, is determined to make your team the worst defensive club in the NBA.
Maybe you two have some deal worked out to tank this season and pray to god they land the #1 pick and John Wall decides to come out. Right now I seriously can’t understand what is going on. It’s logically inexplicable how Jordan has coached this team so far, and there are no indications of it improving one bit.
What else does it take, Eddy?
You fired Cheeks after 23 games and a 9-14 record. You’ll be lucky if this team has a 9-14 record after 23 games this season.
Are you waiting for the 20-game threshold to make your move? Or maybe you just don’t want to do something that would confirm that you made a horrible and egregious mistake.
The rumors that you desperately want to trade Elton Brand suggest you believe one big fat mistake was made. Firing your goof ball friend would be 2 for 2 under your reign.
Are you man enough to make the the most obvious (only?) move to help this team and own up to your lack of judgment as Sixers GM?
Please, Stefanski, tell us what the hell is going on with your team, your coach and this franchise? What is your plan?
Who Makes the Decision to Fire the GM?
That’s the next question in line.
We know Ed Snider doesn’t give two shits about the Sixers or know a damn thing about basketball so it can’t be him.
Is it Peter Luukko?
Who is calling the shots in this organization? What is the real hierarchy?
At what point do you fire a GM?
After he hires an unfit coach because he was cheap, convenient and his crony? Check.
How about when the GM spends a lot of money now, yet talks about the future and has a bottom 5 club? Check.
Losing in the first round of the playoffs two straight seasons? Check.
Missing the playoffs? We are well on our way. Two times? Three?
Do you wait until the team has played one full season with all the major pieces being under the current GM’s direction (i.e. when Sam and Willie are gone)?
The Sixers are shooting for 9 losses in a row tomorrow night in Charlotte, and the way both teams are playing, it’s a realistic possibility that will be the result. If that happens, mini-mini Ed (Jordan) needs to be fired.
Once that happens whoever the biggest dog is for the Sixers needs to think long and hard whether he should let mini-Ed (Stefanski) make the decision on the next head coach.
I was at the point where I could no longer dedicate any energy, time or brain power to this team.
Thank God A.I. is back. That is the only reason to pay attention to this squad.
I would say it’s also Jrue. But the coach is a buffoon and likely to play Willie Green over the kid and Elton Brand when Iverson starts playing.
When Lou comes back forgetaboutit.
Alas it all comes back to the coach and the GM who hired him.
Is it me or do you just have this helpless feeling every time you watch the Sixers?
It’s like watching your friends on boat with a blind guy navigating them right over a waterfall where they will plummet to their deaths. And a Captain who either encourages it to happen or simply turns a blind eye and allowing them to continue on that disastrous path.
In the end of that story the navigator and the captain fall too. And we can only hope that is the fate for the two clowns most responsible for the on-court performance of the Sixers as well.
I just needed to get my little rant out of the way before a new heart and soul starts to beat full blast for this team on Monday.
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Agree wholeheartedly. I finally figured out what this feels like. This is like watching a 19-game basketball version of the Eagles 12-sack game when Buck had 100+ on limited carries and they refuse to give Justice any help when he was getting his butt kicked. It is the feeling of sheer ineptness and lack of common sense combined with a coach determined to get in his own way no matter what, in order to play “his way” despite getting blasted as a result.
Stefanski needs to man up, point blank. Fire his boy, ASAP
a little early to fire Stefanski. Actually, a lot early, I think.
the only move he’s made that I disagreed with from start to finish was hiring Jordan.
I don’t know if it’s his fault or the medical reports he received on the Brand signing. But I was dancing when that happened.
Speights was a steal in the draft, and Jrue might end up one as well.
Kapono for Evans was a heist, even though Jordan doesn’t realize Kapono is on the team half the time.
Fire Jordan though? Absolutely, but I don’t think that will happen until after the season. At this point, I kind of want him to drive the team into the ground, because in the end that might be the best thing.
I have been one to give Stefanski a break. I wanted to give him time to make moves and sculp this team in his vision.
Pete don’t forget:
He committed long term to two young guys. That’s not bad. Iguodala’s contract isn’t the worst but it’s not good and could be better for the team if he played hard ball. He decided to be soft and just give Dala whatever he wanted as to not hurt his big ass head. Every penny helps in this economy and especially when you put together a bad AND boring team that can’t attract fans.
I wouldn’t fire Stefanski but I would place much more oversight on his decisions. Basically I am putting him on punishment and he has to prove he has a clue during a probationary period.
I would look into either getting rid of the other basketball people in the organization OR at least bring in someone new who won’t bend over to Stefanski like we all know DiLeo is.
Checks and balances.
Either way something has to change. Results are one thing. Sometimes shit happens. Not having a clear plan that makes sense is an unacceptable problem.
Manning up to his coaching hire mistake so quickly would go a long way in my eyes. That and bringing in an assistant coaching staff that does not include any failed ex-Sixers coaches would be nice.
Given that this season is practically a total loss already, I want to see Stefanski not panic, keep his head and make any desperate shot in the dark Billy King type trades. Realistically speaking, firing Jordan and having yet another interim coach (Dileo? Stefanski himself?) isn’t a move I see Stefanski making, but there should be a trade this season, and I don’t want to see our mess dumped for another team’s mess.
That is to say “…want to see Stefanski keep his head, rather than panicking…”
Jordan has to go. They are now worse than the Knicks, the Warriors and the Suns on Defense! There is no excuse for that. That’s why they are losing games. Shoot, the team that started AI, AI Korver Webber and Sam was better on D. Fire him yesterday.
Stefanski has not earned the same fate, but he deserves a short leash, though.
Are we really going to watch several months of EJ start Bill Green over Elton Brand? Really?
Morty – On the bright side, it would guarantee us a high lottery spot.
u know what the more Dannie talks about it, the more i realize that he has really coached worse than we think. i always get caught up in the players cos from my POV its our players that suck but my goodness: benching Brand, Playing Willie Green, our defense is getting progressively worse with each game it seems.
i dont think its still too early to fire him. wait for him to mess up when AI returns and it really becomes a circus. perfect storm. AI questioning your coach’s winning tactics in post game conferences, Jordan struggling to keep some impression of control over the situation. it’ll look perfectly justified. no one will jump on Stefanski for hiring him in the first place. of course this is all wishful thinking.
i still havent given up o that #1 pick. New Jersey is doing a number right now but its a long season. all we have to do is finish in the bottom 5 to stand a good chance. I am very willing to endure the pain of a horrible season if it means we get a #1 oir#2 pick. if keeping Eddie Jordan helps that, then viva d’offense de la Princeton. i dont know if it will save us but for once I would like to see what would happen.
Sixers last #1 pick = franchise changer Allen Iverson.
small sample size to go on, but meen u gotta try everything right?
something’s gotta change.
on a more reasonable standpoint, for any GM, a loss to the Charlotte Bobcats is where the line is drawn. anyone else would be a fool to keep Jordan after that.
I do think ES is a bright basketball guy. I have agreed with some of his decisions, but he has made one pervasive mistake. the same one that was made at the AI trade…
You can’t have it both ways. You are either young and rebuilding or you are trying to win now. This overlaps from BK right into ES. I don’t know where the blame for one starts and the other ends.
Flashback to the AI trade and look at the decisions:
-At time of AI trade, worst record in the NBA: BUILD FOR FUTURE
-Acquire 2 #1’s for AI: BUILD FOR FUTURE
-Acquire and rely heavily on Andre Miller and Joe Smith: WIN NOW
-Let Joe Smith walk for nothing: BUILD FOR FUTURE/MONEY?
-draft Thad Young, 19 years old, supposedly raw and years away: BUILD FOR FUTURE
-Sell #1 pick and trade out of 2nd round picks: WHO KNOWS/MONEY?
-Draft supposedly raw Speights: BUILD FOR FUTURE
-Sign 30 year old Brand to Philly Max: WIN NOW
-Sign 24 year old AI9 and 21 year old Lou Williams to long term deals: BUILD FOR FUTURE
-Extend Mo: BUILD FOR FUTURE?
-Fire Mo: Win Now?
-Interim coach DiLeo: WHO KNOWS/MONEY?
-Hold onto Miller’s expiring at deadline: WIN NOW/MONEY?
-Let Miller Walk for nothing: BUILD FOR FUTURE/MONEY?
-Hire EJ:WHO KNOWS/MONEY (Wash paying part of his contract)
-Sign AI: WIN NOW?MONEY?
Despite the venting mockery of some, “Bill” Green is a decent basketball player folks. Adaptive, self-controlled, team-committed and effective beyond statistics. Open your eyes. Morty, the ”myth” of his defense is founded in coaches’ assessments, is captured on game film and is seen by the eyes of anyone who understands basketball. Willie’s not the sort to create a “Mona Lisa” of a game, neither will he spray paint graffiti on team goals as many of his teammates are prone to do. Would be an appreciated utility guy on a strong team. Too bad he’s surrounded by “athletic” buffoons who wouldn’t know a defensive movement from a bowel movement.
So basically I think ES wanted to have a good team with Brand/Iguodala/Miller that could grow into a great team as You,Speights and Lou developed. Sounds great, you get all of the benefit without the pain. Heck, they even drafted well enough to get upper lottery talent with mid 1st round picks…
The problem is that it is hard to take a team that is the worst in the NBA (at the time of the AI trade 3 years ago) and build a winner without paying the piper. They have been almost exactly .500 since the AI trade over those 3 years. But there combination of win now and win later moves has them stuck- and ES has to take some of the heat- beyond the heat he gets for EJ being a clueless joke of a coach.
Criteria for firing a coach:
- has no readily discernable game plan
- has lost the respect, thus, ear of his team
- melancholy game results
Found this tidbit:
Yahoo Sports is playin with my emotions. Just saw a breaking news headline : PHILLY OUSTS COACH. I got all excited, then read the next line…Flyers…DAMNIT! Why couldn’t it say Sixers coach Jordan!
Oh and Willie Green getting 41 minutes…I think he dig up dirt or does his damnedest when a coach signs to catch them in compromising situations(maybe with a camera). Then blackmails them into give him playing time…Thats all i can think of for that.
Well the Flyers got themselves a new skipper. Stevens was canned in favor of Peter Laviolette – who won a cup in Carolina in 2006 and took the Islanders (the NHL’s flagship franchise of ineptitude) to the postseason two straight seasons.
To be clear, the Flyers have a winning record right now but were clearly underachieving.
Peter Luuko was at the presser. Maybe he could take a little interest in the ugly step child and get something moving for the Sixers.
The Flyers are one of the flagship clubs in the NHL and they are huge in this town. For the Sixers – one of the NBA’s historic franchises – to be drawing 3–6,000 a night is a shame.
Jumpin, I am not a rip Willie guy, and for 10 to 12 minutes he can serve a role but his defense has gotten worse this year, he seems to have lost 1/2 a step and Holliday really has shown he can be a lockdown defender. Against S.A. there was a 20 pt. swing between when Holliday [ over +10] and Willie [ over -10] were on the court. That isn!t all on him but a lot of it was.
Dannie – Interesting find about the quote between AI and AIfraud. I’ve always wondered what their relationship was like when Iggy first got here. An NBA superstar that doesn’t much care about “doing things the right way”, over dribbles, dominates the ball, clashes with his coach but can score as easily as breathing…and a guy with the personality who (then) did everything the coach asked without question, made and effort to play good defense, played team ball, looked for the extra pass and just tried to fit in.
As Iguodala improved his first three years and the AI situation grew more stale (and C-Webb became more obviously not up to par)…I never heard much about the personal dynamics between the old guard and new guard of that team. Guess this explains it half decently.
Hoopshype – How often do you open up an around-the-NBA rumors and info type of website and see the term: ”Elton Brand very available”. Very available?! Jesus.
This whole EJ not playing Brand thing is just about 10 of our toes off…EJ is tanking his stock when he obviously has SOME juice left and erasing any chance we might have of trading him, tanking any chances of us winning and having a regular rotation, while pissing the hell off out of Brand in the process.
What team would possibly even think about taking Brand? Shame Isaiah is gone.
Appreciate your position, suede. Willie may be a smidgen slower, not certain of that though. Gets burnt occasionally by the rabbits as all guards do. Is one of the very few Sixers who exhibits an understanding of fundamental man-to-man principles and practices them pretty regularly. Agree, Jrue has great defensive potential; is not there yet. Plus/minus figures can be misleading; mean little to me.
WG may have been on court when Sam, the sometimes purported great defender, was 10-12 ft. from jumpshot drilling Duncan, HIS man (3 times during game).
jjg,
I didn’t see the game because of travel, but with all the “smallball” Sam is often the only “big ” in the game to guard the paint. If he follows to the perimeter, who defends the paint- Thad? I put all the blame for the poor defense on EJ. They don’t seem to have a good defensive scheme, EJ doesn’t seem to demand they expend the energy to play good defense and often the combinations on the floor make it impossible to play good team defense.
Fire EJ now!
This is a couple days old I’m sure, but I just read this quote about how EJ intends to use AI in the Princeton Offense:
“I’m confident in my abilities to teach him how to catch the ball and iso,” Jordan told The Philadelphia Inquirer. “That’s part of our offense, isolations … When I talked with him, he knows what we do. I would like for him to know the minimum part of it, not necessarily the intricacies of it … we’ll just do the minimum part, and that’s all he needs to be successful.”
Jordan, if you’re going to make 11 guys learn the intricacies of it (unsuccessfully) but let AI slide through without putting forth the effort you’re going to lose what little respect you have left real fast.
This guy is a fucking joke.
Reading this again, I’m led to believe that EJ has, at best, a casual acquaintance with the English language. Or he’s just a terrible public speaker.
JJG - Adjusted plus/minus numbers account for what teammates and opponents are on the floor every minute and their performance. Willie Green’s performance still is not positive.
The Willie Green conversation really can only be non stat based. Statistically he is well below a “decent basketball player” in most individual categories, traditional stats and by all the all-encompassing advanced stats that seek to put a value on the overall production of a player and their contribution to wins.
With all the data showing Green is a poor player how exactly is he making up for all that with things beyond stats?
Nice guy, sure. Good teammate, I guess. You could argue the fact that he shoots as much as he does considering the lower rate at which he makes shots could be considered “spray painting graffiti on team goals.”
Does that comment imply everyone who suggest Green is a weak player and not strong defensively doesn’t understand basketball and you do?
Finally what if proof would convince you to reevaluate your opinion of Green?
JJG – I agree, +/- is a very misleading stat. I’m not a fan of the fact that all of a sudden this has become more popular to gauge a player’s performance during games.
Billie Green – I think he’s always been a good defender, and this is the major reason he’s allowed the minutes he does get on the floor. If you are a coach and your sole goal is to win on a nightly basis, you’d get frustrated very quickly with other players (Williams, Lou) complete inability to defend and overgamble. Green may not be a lockdown defender or even close, but he knows how to make a guard work, has good size and can get physical when people drive the lane, and does a nice job pressuring the ball on the perimeter.
Willie Green can be frustrating as we all know due to his atrocious decision making on offense (how many times do we need to see this guy take it one on one and barrell through the lane into 3 defenders and jacking up some stupid shot or TO?), and the fact that he is a crappy shooter, but thinks, like Iggy he is a good one and should be chucking it up. But I’ve always thought he does bring a certain level of hunger and intensity on the defensive end, he seems to enjoy hounding the opposing player he guards, and compared to other guys on the roster, I’ll give him props for that.
Green has terrible shot selection and his defense is historically under average (and that’s putting it lightly). And for that, Jordan rewards him with starters minutes.
In the meantime, Brand, after shaking off two years of rust, seems to (statistically) regained form. And for that, Jordan makes him a bench player.
The difference between last season and this season is the loss of Andre Miller and change in coach. Last season, the Sixers actually played defense. Seeing as how they still score points, who’s lap does the blame fall?
I don’t know. I really don’t. I originally thought upper management was attempting to move the team to another location, seeing how well it worked out for the OKC Thunder. Then they re signed A.I., so now I can only assume incompetence?
Seems like the enthuiasm for firing Jordan in this thread is massive. This is before Allen Iverson, who has quite a record of differences of opinions with coaches joins the club. This could get real interesting.
I don’t know that it means anythng, or what it would mean, but of all the posts, which I scanned, I didn’t see 1 suggestion on a replacement.
EJ really has lost the team at this point……and pleeeeeeese, let Holiday get his minutes at the 1 or 2 during this stretch without LW…..If he disappears and I have to watch 25 straight second half minutes of Kapano play matador and shoot off balance 20 footers….ugh….seriously, what the fcuk is up with EJ’s rotations…..It has not only confused all of us here, who quite frankly, know their P’s and Q’s pretty well even if we disagree, but the entire team runs around on defense like idiots…….without turnovers, we never get to run, in the half court, we dribble handoff over and over and over and over…..ugh…..somebody stop me please…..and also…..
EJ must go……….we should do what the Raider fans did here in San Francisco…well Oakland……they bought a billboard add for about 3 grand politely asking al davis to hire someone who knows what the hell they’re doing……the took up donations on a website and in about 2 days bought the billboard….pretty funny…. go Laviolette……rustle up some toughness….Let’s go Flyers….clap-clap….clap-clap-clap.
Clearly Ed Snider is a hockey fan, but great coaching recovery by the Flyers. The Sixers do need a better coach and perhaps an owner who would really be dedicated to the Sixers. Getting Iverson back is for now a short term project to bring fans back. What about a long term plan? Anyway, I look forward to the Sixers game against an angry Bobcats team (for losing to the Nets, yikes!).
Overall, what a week in Philly Sports, mostly great headlines (Iverson, Polanco) with a touch of shaky ones(Eagles injuries, Flyers).
Eddie Jordan, if you read this forum, you are certainly skating on thin ice, even though you coach basketball. John Stevens knew his time was up, so will yours if you do not get your team on the same page defensively. And clearly, Brand is your best player on BOTH ends of the floor and deserves more playing time. And do not screw too much with Iverson because he is the only man on your roster who will put every ounce of sweat and blood in the game. And don’t say any of us didn’t warn you.
Anyway, GO SIXERS AND GO FLYERS!!
Ken, Dannie thinks an intermin coach [Mc Kie,Ford?] would be brought in till seasons end because teams don!t bring in a new coach mid-year. To me that would be an upgrade. Dannie, assuming our coach is not insane, Kate Fagen mentioned he must see something with Elton off the court that he likes. Without banging your head against a wall, what could it possibly be, in a pure basketball sense? Though it makes no sense!!
Ken, you want a suggestion? Fire Jordan now, show the players that underachieving will put jobs at risk. Put one of the assistants in place for the rest of the season, McKie, Lynam, whoever.
Then fire Stefanski after the season. I don’t necessarily think he deserves to be fired but this team is a mess and changes need to be made. Go out and bring in a real basketball guy as the GM. A ballsy, anything-to-win type of guy.
That GM is going to have to go out and make a splash with a coach. Avery Johnson or Tom Thibodeau would be my first choices.
Then you do what you need to do get the best out of a EB trade. Obviously this will be a lot easier if you fire EJ and make the interim guy play EB 35 minutes a game.
Then, take the winter to set serious, and reachable goals for the 2010-11 season. If a championship run isn’t in the cards bring AI back for one more year of ticket sales.
Change from the top down, its what this organization needs. Lets hope Snider and Luuko – two big time hockey guys – can figure out how to do it.
AI is one to speak his mind. His relationship with the coach will be interesting to watch. Although, he is the coachs’ type of player. Now that the coach is scaling back the PO, maybe he will go back to a traditional lineup with EB in the starting lineup BUT I kinda doubt he’ll do it.
tk76: Great analysis. I believe that Stefanski was fooled by the great run they had 2 years ago, drank the kool-aid and, with marketing and sales as the wind at his back, went for the splash of a veteran big man to put them over the top. And Brand, Miller, Igoudala, Thad, Lou, Speights very well might have worked Perhaps not enough to make them a champion, but at least a top 4 finish in a weak conference. Except Brand wasn’t healthy, Thad, Lou and Speights are too young, only Thad has improved his jumper, and this team still hasn’t had a decent coach since Larry Brown. The current coach is the worst yet. At least they played hard and had some life for Maurice Cheeks.
Dannie,
Simply, Willie Green:
1) generally isn’t sloppy w/ball, doesn’t turn it over much … career: 21.6 min per gm; 1.2 TO per gm – A STAT! [in bball, possession is 10/10ths of the law]
2) plays commendable defense (both individual & team) - my opinion, based on much close observation
3) leads team in foul shooting accuracy, .897 % - A STAT!
4) shows respect for coaches & teammates & team goals – my opinion, based on reading printed commentary – both his own and others’ - and observing posture & actions
5) doesn’t “jack” nearly to the degree that some, including you, state;
Sixers, shot attempts per 36 min, 2009:
Iguodala: 14.6 shots attempted
Williams: 13.4
Speights: 13.2
Brand: 12.6
Carney: 12.6
Young: 12.4
Green: 12.4 (his number has declined each of last 3 seasons)
… again, STATS!
As for your pointed closing questions, my answers:
1) your power of inference is working
2) whom am I to believe, you or my lying eyes?
What it comes down to is, “proof” is in each particular basketball fan’s particular pudding of experientially-developed bias, court values and evaluative conviction (subject to change).
Go, Willie!
I love the fact that in all that is going around the Sixers organization (Elton, Allen, EJ etc.)… We are able to have a nice discussion about Willie Green.
I personally have always liked Willie as a player. I’m not going to sit here and bash him for taking too many shots either. I’m not sure what it is, but when I watch him play, I don’t get pissed off. It really doesn’t occur to me that he is “jacking” up shots. The only time I get frustrated is when he drives in the lane and throws up a runner trying to draw the foul. He’s always been a decent shooter in my eyes, and a very underrated on-ball defender.
But the bottom line is this. We have been BEGGING for a legit shooting guard for years now. Obviously Willie isn’t the guy we are looking for. So I’ll say that he is a bench player at best. On a championship level team I don’t think he would play nearly as many mintutes.
guest: Exactly. Everyone can disagree about the relative abilities of Green, but surely we can all agree that a good team is not playing him a starter’s minutes.
AND when Elton Brand whose numbers of late have been pretty impressive is losing out in minutes to Willie one has to wonder about it. Especially when rebounding is an obvious weakness.
Willie Green: His free throw shooting is fifth in the league. Also, it’s fifteen points higher than his career average. Will he come back down to earth? Possibly not, but there was a time where Shaq made several dozen in a row.
Willie Green played terrible against OKC, and it’s because they targeted him – probably to an extent that we haven’t seen in any other game. He’s a major defensive liability. I don’t know if we were watching the same game, but he couldn’t guard anyone… which, to *my* eyes, is fairly typical.
He’s a semi average gunner who can’t defend a vast majority of the guards in the league; this issue is exacerbated by the fact that Jordan gives minutes to the detriment of Brand, who, given an opportunity, will give you a double double and a couple of blocks.
don’t mean to rain on you guys’ parade because I dislike Jordan as much as the next guy but I think EJ’s going to get another clean slate once AI gets here. Here goes another 10 games of “we’re trying to work Allen into the system” and “I love how Willie is getting after it, I love how Royal plays defense.”
FML