Ever wonder what goes on in NBA contract negotiations? What the teams say, what the players are thinking and how their agents go to battle for them? I’ve touched on it a bit in recent posts, and we’ve been discussing it quite a bit in the comments on this blog. But, unless you are an insider you rarely know what really goes on behind closed doors in pro sports. We are so often left with the common line “team official X can not comment on negotiations as per league rules.”
But today I read an article I found especially interesting considering the Sixers’ restricted free agents have yet to be signed. It features a sports agent who is not bound by NBA rules on discussing negotiations and his dealings with Cleveland Cavaliers this summer. I thought the comments from 22-year agent Aaron Goodwin (Delonte West’s representative) gave good insight into how NBA contract negotiations are handled from both sides of the table. And it’s not much different from what we go through in our own lives. Without the millions that is!
The team’s perspective
“They said, ‘Take the deal we’ve offered or we’ll go an alternate route,’ ” Goodwin said. “They won’t negotiate fairly.”
Sounds like the “there are plenty of fish in the sea” mentality. How is this much different from any other organization and Joe Schmo worker in corporate America? Basically telling the employee you are replaceable if you don’t except our terms. I could see this being fairly common for role players who are restricted free agents.
“They keep saying how much players want to play with LeBron (James). That doesn’t work with Delonte.”
That’s about the only selling point Cleveland has, right? They got lucky getting to the Finals on the broad shoulders of LeBron James but aren’t really considered a perennial championship contender. So management uses their one and only star as a “benefit of the job” to lure free agents - at management’s price. Apparently Delonte West isn’t as star struck as the Cavs would like him to be.
Goodwin said the Cavs told him they have five or six players who are all around the same level playing-wise. So, he said they want to keep all of those players at the same level contract-wise.
This makes sense to me and is probably one of the biggest reasons negotiations go cold. The two sides don’t agree on the caliber player under consideration for a new contract. The team will look in-house and see what players they have on the roster who are comparable and start the contract at that rate. I get that, companies do it all the time. It then becomes up to the player and agent to plead their case as to why their level is above other guys on the roster. You will clearly see the rebuttals Aaron Goodwin shoots on this point back below.
“To quote another team, ‘Why should we negotiate for the Cavs?’ ” Goodwin said. ” ‘If we make an offer, all they’ll do is match.’
The way Goodwin articulated this point was enlightening for me. It clearly shows why players and their agents HATE the concept of restricted free agency. Basically if an outside team makes an offer to a restricted free agent they are doing all the work for the home team with little chance to reap the reward. The players current team can just sit back and say “we match” after having done no real negotiating or work at all. You can see why there haven’t been many offers made to restricted players if all teams have this mentality.
The agent/player’s perspective
“They made an offer to Delonte for around what they got ‘Boobie’ to sign for,” Goodwin said.
I don’t know, but it just sounds like Goodwin believes Daniel Gibson got duped into his deal. Like it wasn’t the deal he really wanted or desired, and the Cavs organization forced/tricked him into signing at their terms.
“Chris Duhon got $5 million-plus, and he might not even start (for the New York Knicks). All the comparables that we showed them doesn’t matter to Cleveland….Delonte is their starting point guard. He has to play offense and defense. He has to play defense against guys like (Washington’s) Gilbert Arenas. I think he’s hard-nosed, gritty. He can help that team. It’s not apples for apples.”
This is a clear rebuttal to the third quote above. Goodwin is comparing a similar player’s recent contract to what Delonte should be getting now. If Cleveland doesn’t come close to approaching that number they are undervaluing him. I gotta believe this is what agents do all day at the negotiation table. Compare players they think are similar to their guy and push the intangibles outside of statistics that sets them apart. In this case I think Goodwin is exactly right in using Duhon’s contract as a fair example.
But, what if the Cavs didn’t agree with what the comparable player received? The rebuttal I would consider giving if I was management; “We aren’t the damn Knicks. There is no way we would have paid Chris Duhon over $5 million per season. That was a bloated contract and in our eyes doesn’t reflect his true value. We feel your value to our team is similar to Boobie’s, and that is why we offered you a bit more to reflect your role as the starting point guard.” Then I would point to the stats for further justification.
“Quit telling us these bluffs. Sit down and negotiate a fair deal. They are making offers not far off the qualifying offer.”
Anytime someone uses a poker term or analogy I snap to attention (long-time poker player). Poker is not a card game. It is a people game that uses cards. You have to know when your adversary is strong, when they are weak, and react accordingly. Read their tells, call their bluffs, bluff back and show the winning hand. These are all vital skills in negotiations, and Goodwin is clearly up for the game. (And I am willing to bet Ed Stefanski is as well in dealing with Iguodala in particular.)
To me these NBA negotiations look and feel like a 7 or 8 figure version of what we would go through in our everyday work-life. Don’t you agree?
So to bring things back to the Sixers, here’s what I did…
With the domino effect of signings this past week I put together a list of this summer’s comparables for Andre Iguodala and Louis Williams. Obviously, nothing can be an exact match, but I considered, in order: team role/importance + production, position, age and contract. The links next to the player names are side-by-side player comparison stats from Basketball Reference (2008 and cumulative). Listed players are in no particular order.
Andre Iguodala Comparables
- Corey Maggette (2008 / Cumulative): 5-years, $50 million
- Monta Ellis (2008 / Cumulative): 6-years, $67 million
- Luol Deng (2008 / Cumulative): 6-years, $71 million (with $9 million in potential bonuses)
- Andres Biedrins (2008 / Cumulative): 6-years, $63 million
- Emeka Okafor (2008 / Cumulative): 6-years, $72 million
- Andrew Bogut (2008 / Cumulative): 5-years, $60 million extension (with $12 million in potential bonuses)
With all these signings I think Iguodala’s will shortly follow suit. If he is offered a comparable deal to that of Luol Deng or Emeka Okafor, I can’t see how he turns it down. But if for some reason he does, I have to question his perception of his ability and worth in this league - not to mention his desire to win in a Philadelphia 76ers uniform.
Louis Williams Comparables
- Sasha Vujacic (2008 / Cumulative): 3-years, $15 million
- Chris Duhon (2008 / Cumulative): 2-years, nearly $12 million
- Daniel Gibson (2008 / Cumulative): 5-years, $20.8 million
- Micheal Pietrus (2008 / Cumulative): 4-years, $22 million
Apparently Louis Williams turned down an initial offer from the 76ers…
According to a league source, the Cavs have talked to Philadelphia 76ers guard Louis Williams, another restricted free agent. Williams, 21, is a 6-foot-2, 175-pounder who averaged 12 points for the Sixers last season. He has reportedly turned down a contract starting at $3.9 million from the Sixers. - The News-Herald.com
I think we all agreed Lou was somewhere in the $3.5-$5 million range so this initial offer is in the ballpark but on the low end. I am assuming he wants closer to full mid-level exception money and I think in the end he will get it - from the Sixers. Like you read in the above point I don’t see another team making Williams an offer for much more than what the Sixers did. Stefanski would simply match and that would be the end of it. Unless a team vastly overpays Williams ($6M+) they are just going to have to come to terms in-house.
Sixers-related Discussion
You know how I like to toss out some questions and things for us to discuss in the comments so here you go…
- Does the recent flurry of restricted free agent signings change your opinion regarding Iguodala’s and Williams’ potential contracts?
- How do you think Andre Iguodala’s and Louis Williams’ agents are fighting for their clients?
- What player comparables do you think they are they using to set the market price?
- What player roles/importance, value propositions and intangibles are they pushing to Ed Stefanski and the Sixers to get top dollar?
All quotes and comments in this post courtesy of The News-Herald.
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20 comments ↓
Dannie, well done; Iggy!s agent is probably bringing up R.Lewis, E.S. is probably bringing up L.Deung or Hamilton [ the 2 guard issue could factor in on both sides; Iggy changing roles, Sixers unsure of results]. L.Will.!s agent is probably bringing up M.Ellis , while E.S. has a plethora of 5 mill. comparison!s ,as you have stated above. 12 mill. for Iggy and 5 mill. for L.Will. should get both back.
Dannie, is there any, any, any way possible to still get B.Gordon in a sign and trade package for L.Will. plus? Now that we have a backup p.g. and Gpordon has limited options in Chicago could it be possible AT ALL? E. S. has stated they would go over the luxury tax for the right player. A Young, Iggy, and Gordon rotation at the 2/3 would be championship quality, but I guess I!m getting greedy.
Good work Dannie, and I agree with you on the comparisons and I fully expect Iggy to be signed by this weekend or early next week. I’m a little less certain about Williams and do feel that he and his agent may be over estimating his value, even though he’s young, to give a guy 5 mil to come off the bench is a little iffy especially if you don’t believe he’s a point guard and thus if you lose Miller next year you don’t have a true replacement. Can anybody say A.I. (unrestricted next year). They’re probably looking more at Duhon’s # than anyone else, since he came off the bench last year. Even though we know the Knicks always over pay and he’ll probably start. We’ll just wait and see. What do you guys think about Iggy at the 2?
TT32 I already have a post in the works talking about starting Iguodala at the shooting guard. I have a ridiculous spreadsheet with the statistics for the top 60 shooting guards and combo guard/forwards in the NBA. I am just waiting for him to officially be signed before jumping on that topic because it’s a good one.
Great post. I’ll just rehash some previous thoughts…
Biedrins, Okafor, and Deng’s signings definately are a positive for Iggy. In my opinion, they all got overpaid. That being said, Iggy has outperformed each of them and will top each of their deals. I now project him to get $12-$12.5 million per year. Iggy and the team will reach an agreement on their own, I don’t see any team setting the number for them.
Williams is another story. I expect the Sixers to stick to 3.9 million until another team tops it, which will occur. The Sixers will match and our roster will be set. Personally, I think that Daniel Gibson is the best comparison for Lou and he got 4.2 million. That being said, I wouldn’t offer…but would match a higher number.
Suede - Getting a little greedy but that’s ok. If Chicago doesn’t want to keep Gordon I don’t see why they would want Louis Williams either. They might look for a sign and trade involving a player who can consistently score in the post for Gordon. But not sure we have the right players to get involved.
Iggy should get a deal right between the Deng and Ellis deals. Ellis is slightly better and younger than Iggy. While Deng is slightly worse. Interestingly, Deng got more than Ellis. I think Deng is overpaid.
The B. Gordon deal would be interesting. He’s a good shooter and would be very good in a 6th man role. If that deal were to go down it would be the icing on the cake of a great offseason.
Prince was all over Iggy like a cheap suit in April when stakes were high, psyching him away from upper echelon play that pays the big bucks. On that basis alone, Stefanski can hold firm to his number, while Iggy & agent squirm, tabling spread sheets of statistical delusions of grandeur. Factoring in another year of service, and the rate of inflation and diminishing dollar (and applying a fancy for irony) I’d offer last year’s spurned 5 for 57 and a Billy King bobblehead.
Guys, do you think there is any resentment towards the situation with Thad at all. #1] he is being given Iggy!s position; #2] Iggy is put in trade talks and deemed replaceable by a lot of fans while Thad is deemed untouchable, yet isn!t guaranteed to even reach Iggy!s level. #3] Is that the teams opinion also?
@BBAL you need to get your head checked if you think Monta Ellis is better all around player than Andre Iguodala. If I found out today that we traded andre I for ellis straight up I would murder myself far away and not leave a note..BUNCHA CRAZIES….monta ellis pffffff, hes not even that nast
On a less crazy note I agree somewhere between 12 and 13 for IGG, 4-5 for Lou
Im distraught…Ellis better than IGG, you kidding me right now?
Madness it is, just madness
Let me make sure, you’re talking about MONTA ELLIS right? I could be wrong, maybe kobe married a dude and took his name, kobe bryant ellis or Lebron james ellis or something. there is no way you meant MONTA ELLIS, did you?
Ive also heard a few people say things about going back after Iverson next year. That would be a horrible move. He’s getting old (not slowing down a bit though), huge contract and I’m talking bout PRACTICE. Don’t get me wrong I am a huge supporter (cried when he came back last year, no homo!), I started watching the sixers his rookie year and haven’t stopped. Probably the greatest 6′ player in the history of the game, but I think he is better suited for an AND 1 money mix tape than a NBA championship.
Sorry about the 4 posts in a row Dannie, and anyone else who reads them, got a little excited.
SUEDE: It would surprise me if resentment isn’t playing at least some small part in Iguodala’s negotiations. The same goes for Louis Williams as well, but I don’t think it is a major sticking point. I would hope that any resentment Iguodala does feel is directed at the team, rather than at Young, because all the players are in the same boat as far as trying to make their way in the league as best they can.
I think resentment, feeling disrespected, or whatever you want to call it is almost unavoidable because the entire process is adversarial. The player is trying to build himself up and show how he is better than others out there in order to get max dollars. Meanwhile, management counters by producing evidence to show that he is not worth what he is asking for and trying to keep his salary as low as possible. Even though everyone knows that’s how the game is played, it still must be difficult to keep it from getting personal. I mean, you’re not haggling over a car, you are negotiating over yourself, which is the very definition of personal.
Regardless of the sport, ownership and management has the upper hand so, as a player, you are always fighting an uphill battle. That being said, I can understand the difficulties from management’s perspective. Is Iguodala as valuable as we think he is? Our very own Dannie has labeled Lou Williams as a core chemistry player, but nothing that can’t be replaced. Unless you are talking about a Kobe or a LeBron, it has to be very difficult to assess what a player brings. Is he truly good in and of himself to the point where he makes his teammates better? Or does he look better than he really is because of who he is playing with? In many cases it must be very difficult to tease out who fits in what category and therefore who is worth paying and keeping and who is replaceable.
Speaking of teasing out a player’s true value to a team puts me in mind of the Pistons. If you pulled any one of their starting five out and placed them on another team, I wouldn’t see that player being the clear #1, unquestioned leader of that team, regardless of who you selected. I realize that Ben Wallace isn’t phenomenal, but he did a heck of a lot more for the Pistons than he has done for the Bulls. The Pistons have very good players that have blended into a fantastic team. They all help each other to be better than any of them could be individually. If the Pistons start to dismantle, I think teams will end up over paying for each individual player based on that.
What about us? You mentioned Iguodala and Young. Does Iguodala make Young look better than he really is, does Young make Iguodala look better, or do they help each other equally? Even if Iguodala makes Young look better (which I think he does) now, do we see something in Young that tells us he will be more valuable than Iguodala in the near future so he’s the one we should focus on keeping? Again the same goes for Lou. Is he really just a replaceable player or is he more valuable to us than he would be to another team? There are lots of questions swirling around that make for very interesting discussions.
I’m sure you’ve just gotten a lot more than you expected when you asked your questions. Next time be more careful.
I haven’t seen Ellis play too much and was just going on the numbers. Offensively he topped Iggy in almost all categories and is 2 years younger which makes you think he will get better during the length of the contract. The dude averaged 20 ppg on 53% shooting at 22 yrs old. Can’t be that bad. Iggy shot 8% worse than him so Ellis has got to be a really bad defender to make up for that difference.
Luol Deng’s contract is worth upwards of 80 million with incentives. Just to add that.
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/1081178,CST-SPT-bull30.article
bski - well said, you’ve explained “worth” as well as anyone could have. I feel like Iguodala and Thad have the opportunity to grow uo together like MJ & Pip or Stockton & Malone, not saying skill wise (but I hope so) but I’m saying when you think of one guy you automatically think of the other.
bball - Monta Ellis now has the chance to see if he can be “the man” or not. Let’s see if his numbers hold up (especially the FG%).
As much as I like Iggy, he is not worth $80M at this point of his career. And neither is Deng. Buy if Arenas can get $111M then anything’s possible.
DENG!! OKAFOR?? these cats are handing out money like its an election campaign! Jeez can’t anyone have the sense to negotiate with some balls. not only are they driving up iggy’s price tag but worst of all, these guys arent that good. AT ALL. iggy’s way better than deng and okafor is dalembert with minimal post moves. wow if i am iggy’s agent i wud be DEMANDING the moon. if i’m ed, i wud have my head in a toilet right about now. meen anyone read the article bout how inflated superstar contracts are messing cap room and forcing decent players away from nba teams to places like europe?
One down and one to go. Lou Will signed for 5 years. Iguodala should be pulling up to the Sixers office as I type this.
Wonder what the terms are… my guess… 5 years 24 million. 5th year a PO.
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