I’m still trying to call out Dave T. and see what he thinks. When Sixerzguy comes back, I’m confident he’ll stir it up a bit. Let’s keep this thing going.

I actually have a post I am researching that will likely be called Sixers Free Agent Watch. And it will be a list of players many have mentioned but also guys I have heard NO ONE talking about as well and see what you guys think. But that post won’t be until after the draft of course. I already have a list of 17 players.

I was well aware of Larry Brown’s controlling ways and preference for playing veterans over younger players, but I really didn’t factor that into my assessment. LB is also culpable, which would lessen the blame I placed on Iverson. I think the expectations we place on superstars played a part as well. Many times those expectations are unreasonable, causing us to dismiss what the guy actually does. You know, fantastic player…but he never won a title.

All you can do is put the pieces together, keep trying to get better, and have some luck. Other than ‘00-’01 which, I agree with Dannie, was luck, the Sixers were never able to build a team that was good enough. Plenty of blame to go around for that.

NOW, let’s get back to the core. You still haven’t commented on how you feel about Dannie’s choice of four core players. Do you agree with the four? If not, who do you think belongs, who doesn’t, and why? What about our young guys? Who do you think we should keep and who should we try to move? We’ve got to get this discussion back on track.

First…I didn’t say every player the Sixers brought in was a stiff. Far from it. My point is that the Sixers tried numerous times to bring in a legit 2nd offensive option…and NONE of them panned out in that role. You said Larry Brown was a good talent evaluator…I strongly disagree. LB is a prime example of a coach that should never, EVER be a GM. He was fickle, could change his attitudes on players in a heartbeat, and readily gave up on young players too quickly, and was manic on his views on certain veterans.

The way our team was structured was the large reason we could never land a real #2. We gave AI the max, overpaid the role players around him, and struck out or did mediocre with draft talent, giving us no real pieces to move for anyone. The best we could hope for was one of two things: veterans on the tail end of their career, young draft picks, or blue chip players that were solid talents but not equipped for a spotlight role. I’ll go through every one of AI’s sidekicks LB/King brought in and categorize them:

-Stackhouse: A legit 2nd option on any team in his prime, but he, like AI then, was young, trigger happy and immature, and as these two could obviously not coexist, we chose the better talent to stick with.

-DC, pt I: At this time DC still could have been a legit bona fide all star and true #2 option…unfortunately, DC had not matured (relatively for his career, anyway lol), was a ballhog, whiny, played no D, destroyed chemistry.

-Jim Jackson: A great #3 option and versatile NBA guy…of course, since we already had Stack and AI, he couldn’t have worked, minutes went down, he got pouty…fell in LB’s dog house, and was never effectively used. Absolutely LB’s fault here…he stubbornly didn’t change his system to help J Jax out at all, he could have easily shined for us.

-Matt Geiger: If he had a career year, a #4 option at the very best. Nice role player though.

-Tim Thomas: Do I really need to say anything here? On the starting five for “Supreme bball talent that squandered his career due to a horribly work ethic and lazyness” team. Great draft pick at the time…just didn’t pan out.

-Larry Hughes: THE move that destroyed our team’s future. We need a SF as a #2 option that can score 18-20 a game, pass, slash, and shoot…so we pass up P Pierce for…another athletic guy that can’t shoot, the same position as AI? Huh? And Pierce wasn’t even a case where then he was slept on…most people generally agreed he was one hell of a talent on the wing.

-Toni Kukoc: One of the most creative Billy King trades of his career, and very intriguing at the time. Unfortunately, Kukoc is the single worst player you would ever possibly want for Larry Brown’s offense he set up for AI teams. Brown is a controlling half court offensive coach that never liked the Sixers shooting threes, and puts guys in very particular spots with set plays. Kukoc thrives in a wide open, ball movement, free flowing style of play, and thrives under guys that let him use his natural bball intuition creatively. Just a horrible match of player talent and coaching.

-Dikembe Mutumbo: Obviously not a legit offensive weapon.

-Jumaine Jones: One of the many rookies underplayed and underutilized by LB, we should have groomed him as our 6th man scorer, he could have been a nice talent had we developed him properly.

-Matt Harpring: A great #4 offensive option for any team…scrappy, tough nosed. Horrible 2nd scoring option though, we asked him to do to much, and again LB’s controlling coach ways hampered his game (he went on to flourish under Sloan the next year).

-KVH: Scored 16.0 PPG, and one of the few guys AI actually trusted with passing the ball. Real productive season, but he was on a rebound year after his confidence being shattered on the Nets teams, not a long term solution.

-DC Pt II: Much more mature, loved LB as a coach, meshed with AI well…but on the decline. Nice vet-savvy player, but too little too late.

-Glenn Robinson: Again, another great vet in the waning years of his career. Injured a lot, horrible attitude, team cancer, we paid him eventually just to get him out of our locker room. Never had a shot of being a legit side kick due to his age.

-Chris Webber: See Glenn Robinson. Sum up of his Sixers career: OBrien: “Chris, we want you in the low post scoring the ball.” C-Webb: “No.” Obviously the wording is different, but this encounter actually took place. Wow. Having one leg, no athleticism, and no defense didn’t help either.

BSki I TOTALLY agree that in his 96 – 02 years (and the Randy Ayers/Chris Ford year, 04)…I couldnt stand how ball hoggy and trigger happy AI got. He didn’t make teamates around him better then, didn’t get the game like he does now.

But I genuinely think had he had a Paul Pierce, Elton Brand, Marion…SOMEONE roughly his age as a respectable 2nd talent, AI would have definitely given up the rock more. Sure a Chris Paul, KG, or the way Kobe plays now could have taken some of those teams and lifted them higher then AI could have given how they make people better…but given the player AI used to be before maturing…it’s more managements fault.

Look, even if the east was as weak as you say back then, it was a relative weakness. It’s not like the east was the equivalent of the CBA or the D-league. It happens often in many sports where a team from the “weaker” conference wins the title. Here’s a recent baseball example, the 2006 St. Louis Cardinals. Sticking with 2006, How about the NBA champs, Miami? By your measurements, the east wasn’t too strong then either. The east had one 60 win team(Pistons), two .500 clubs (Indiana and Chicago), and one sub .500 club(Milwaukee) make the playoffs. By comparison, the west had two 60 win clubs(San Antonio and Dallas), and the bottom two teams (Denver and Sacramento) had 44 wins. Top to bottom the west’s playoffs teams had better records even though they played in the “tougher” conference. What happened? Miami “got lucky” and had an “easier” route, only having to defeat “weaker” teams to reach the finals. Meanwhile Dallas had to fight through “tougher” teams in the “stronger” conference to make it. Well, the Heat not only made it but also beat the Mavs for the title. Do you discount Miami’s title? The difference between the ‘05-’06 Heat and the ‘00-’01 Sixers is that Miami had Shaq and Wade while we had only Iverson. That is also the main reason we fell short in the ‘01 finals. The Lakers had Shaq and Kobe while we only had Iverson. Two superstars beats one almost every time.

As far as why the Sixers drafted Iverson, at a minimum, you’ve got it backwards. They drafted him because he was an unbelievably talented basketball player. One that doesn’t come along very often and who could indeed revitalize Philly basketball. Also, one that they needed very badly at the time. The business side and selling tickets was secondary.

I certainly am not blinded by Iverson’s 30 ppg. If you’ve read my posts here, you know that I believe Iverson should bear some responsibility for the team’s struggles. I don’t think he deserves a free pass because of his numbers. I think that part of the reason the team was not better is that he was not a better teammate back then. As difficult as it is to make your teammates better, as the unquestioned leader of the team and an MVP caliber player, it was up to him to do it. That being said, you cannot dismiss out of hand what he has done and continues to do in this league at 5′11″ and 165lbs. He deserves respect for his ability, heart, determination, and accomplishments.

I don’t even know what you are talking about when you say top xx team? That season, ever, in the last 10 years, what? Regardless no one said they were, what we said was that was the right model to build around Iverson’s unique talent and it worked. No one can predict how that team would have faired in subsequent NBA seasons its all speculation and until you understand what you say is not “truth” but simple opinion and speculation based on some facts and personal subjective reasoning we will just have to agree to disagree.

Like I said I am trying to get this conversation back on track with the Sixers current core players and won’t even bother going into why I don’t agree with this statement at all “I think the Sixers drafting Iverson was based on 2 things. #1 was the fact that he was going to sell out every game for them and revitalize basketball in Philly. #2 was that he might be a great player. From a business standpoint, Allen Iverson is one of the top 20 players to ever play the game.”

@Dave T

As far as their competition… Pacers weren’t a top 20 NBA team probably. Toronto wasn’t a playoff team in the West and the Sixers barely won against them. If Vince Carter had a clutch bone in his body he wouldn’t have come up 6 inches short on his game winning shot after his graduation lol. VC is a bigger joke than Iverson by A LOT. Bucks were a legit solid top 10 NBA team that year. Nothing special. Their front court was scrubs.

I don’t blame Melo for the downfall. I blame management. Substitute Miller and Evans for Iverson and you have a better overall team in Denver by a lot. They would sell less seats and jerseys though… so maybe management was right to bring in Iverson, the seat seller.

@DANNIE

I think the Sixers drafting Iverson was based on 2 things. #1 was the fact that he was going to sell out every game for them and revitalize basketball in Philly. #2 was that he might be a great player. From a business standpoint, Allen Iverson is one of the top 20 players to ever play the game.

The “right” team behind Iverson was still not a top 5 NBA team. Plain and simple fact.

@bski

Iverson played 1 on 5. Opponents played 5 on 4. That is how Iverson’s career should be defined.

I guess I am done. People are constantly blinded by Iverson’s 30 ppg and him falling all over the court. They ignore his lack of defense and overall neglect for ball movement.

Lets just hope that Lou Williams goes the Tony Parker route with a jump shot and not the Allen Iverson route, since AI’s route never contends.