Look, I don’t bull shit you – I was on the Ty Lawson train from day one, and when Pete and I saw Holiday drop we were almost certain the Sixers would select him. He was projected as a lottery talent, and if you subscribe to the draft tiers model, you aren’t supposed to pass on a player like that no matter what.
Luckily for us this was a PG-heavy draft, and the higher rated guy that dropped could eventually be a good point guard in a couple years. When they did take him, I was disappointed and very deflated. I was geared up for my new-old logo Ty Lawson Sixers jersey, the first Sixers jersey and player I was excited about since Iverson. And honestly had they picked Lawson that would have swayed me to re-up my partial season tickets. Right now I don’t plan to. Pete wasn’t excited but nowhere near as down as I was.
Let me be clear: the pick was fine. You are supposed to take the highest rank player on your board, and they did. Had they taken B.J. Mullens or something ridiculous like that I might have punched a hole in Pete’s flat screen. Where I question, not really the Sixers but in general, is why was he the highest ranked player on the board?
The Sixers will do their PR thing and hype the kid up. That’s their job. You can head over to Depressed Fan for a much more optimistic opinion and view of the Holiday if you want; Brian does a great job. I can save you the time and quickly tell you what you will hear from pretty much everyone in terms of the positives of Holiday dropping to us at pick 17…
- Value pick based on pre-draft rankings (this is “perceived value” not actual value. We won’t know the actual value for a few years as we look at how Holiday and the guys we passed over turn out)
- Gatorade National Player of the Year out of high school and, depending where you look, rated as one of the 5 best high school players in that class and the #1 point guard in the class. These types of high school players tend to turn out pretty well.
- Upside/Potential
- Great size for the point guard position
- Wingspan
- Court vision
- Good defender who can defend both guard positions with lock down potential
- Athletic
- Coachable/good kid
- He played out of position at UCLA so he really wasn’t as bad as all the numbers make him look
- And the big one specific to Sixers fans – this is a Thaddeus Young-type pick
I don’t disagree with any of that. It’s all accurate for the most part. Where I do begin to add some of my own reality with the pick is I think there is a debatable spectrum on a number of those traits.
For one I think his upside and potential are very very debatable. Some say he has star potential; some think he is a good role player at best. This will have almost everything to do with him proving he really is a high level and natural point guard and not a tweener. While he absolutely has great (get fired up as Sixers fans) size for the point guard position at this stage in his development, he is unproven as a point and widely considered as a combo guard until proven otherwise. Right now we are getting a high school point guard. That’s fine.
But I would love for a UCLA person to explain to me why Howland didn’t have him on the ball offensively even with Collison there? Collison was clearly the better shooter, wouldn’t it make more sense to have Holiday on the ball offensively using his skills to kick out to Collison rather than the other way around? Wouldn’t that maximize both players “natural” ability? I tend to think Ben Howland is a good coach that knows what he is doing for the most part. I am sure some of it had to do with Holiday being a freshman and Howland probably not trusting him to run the show (but I am pretty sure he recruited him to do just that since Collison was thought to be gone), but still it just doesn’t make much sense to me. Just a thought.
You will hear some people say he is an elite athlete. I personally haven’t seen that, and I do not think that is the consensus at all. In fact most of what I’ve heard and read suggests that Holiday is not an explosive athlete rather just an average-to-good athlete, but nothing to go crazy over. That’s fine; average is certainly an upgrade over Andre Miller at the position for sure.
Court vision? I mean it’s one of those fuzzy basketball intangibles that doesn’t have a direct measurement, but it does have indicators. I mean court vision must translate into some sort of production on the court right? I would have to watch him in every game to get a real feel for his court vision (seen him twice live and a few times on TV). His assists per 40 and assist-to-turnover ratio doesn’t really suggest he has great court vision. But again he didn’t get to play point most of the time at UCLA. I actually think he is happy as hell to be gone from there because he was expecting Collison to be gone and it would have been his show to run.
All that adds up to this: Holiday could end up being a big hit or big miss. It’s my opinion this wasn’t a “safe” pick. This kid could bust. And by bust I mean in relation to his pre-draft rankings and high school status and the hype surrounding his upside. I do not mean bust in the sense that he could end up just being another average-at-best NBA player who plays a nice role on some team. That would be fine if the expectations weren’t so high. The range?
- Jrue Holiday could end up being a bad player and continues the same weak production he showed as a freshman at UCLA. Never translate his good form into actual on-court shooting efficiency. Remain a tweener who never develops into a true point guard. Doesn’t figure out how to defend elite level perimeter players in the NBA (Curry ate him up in their Knicks workout together and Steph isn’t a type NBA guard yet) It’s possible and just worth consideration when being objective.
- He could come into his own as a true point guard with great size and strong willingness to play defense and do it well and gain a proficiency at getting in the lane and finishing at the rim. His shooting improves over time where he is a solid mid-range shooter (his size makes this a priority in my opinion) with at least average NBA three-point accuracy. He is our point guard for the next 10-12 years and plays the position at a high level, but most likely not an all-star/elite level. My first thought was Deron Williams as a potential ceiling, but I think that is too much. I will go with Pete’s idea of what his ceiling could be: Rajon Rondo, which would be awesome but again not the most likely outcome. It gives me and many of you something to get excited about if you were on the Lawson train.
- He becomes a better version of Royal Ivey as a useful role player as a combo guard. Helps a team in a limited role as a defensive stopper at the who is okay on offense. Look, teams need guys like this, so it’s not technically a bad thing either.
Which is most likely? Matter of opinion. It’s really anyone’s guess. If you want to go with some sort of statistical model to gauge his pro potential:
Hollinger’s Draft Rater had him as the 13/14th ranked player which makes him “decent value late.” Here is what Hollinger had to say:
“Down at No. 13, Holiday is a bit of a surprise — given that he’s projected to go higher — but he has the two characteristics that produce the greatest error rate in the Draft Rater: He’s a point guard and has played only one year. In other words, his real value might be much higher or much lower, and because the consensus is much higher, it wouldn’t bother me to use a top-eight pick on him.”
Kevin Pelton Model had him as the 4th best point guard and 7th best prospect overall in terms of pro potential. Here’s what it said:
Jrue Holiday, UCLA (2.4 WARP)
Age: 18.9 | Translated Stats: 0.411 Win% | 0.452 TS% | 14.4 Usage | 8.7 Reb% | 1.85 PassComps: Russell Westbrook (96.4); Javaris Crittenton (95.8); Gilbert Arenas (93.5); Trevor Ariza (92.0); Jordan Farmar (91.4)
There’s something about UCLA: Three of Holiday’s best comps were also Bruins, including the most natural analogue, Westbrook. All three of those UCLA predecessors outperformed their college numbers in the pros, and Holiday seems like a good bet to do the same. His relatively meager production last season is tempered by the fact that Holiday was on the young side for an elite freshman (he’s the youngest prominent American in the draft, having just turned 19). Though he ranks fourth among point guards, Holiday comes out as the seventh-best prospect overall.
DraftExpress: Situational Analysis:
Jrue Holiday didn’t stand out in any one area, but he’s similar to Tyreke Evans in how he needs to develop a jumper to complement his finishing ability.
Not super efficient overall (.86 PPP), Holiday has the lowest usage of any NCAA player on our list at 9.7 possessions per game. He played a small role on a very slow-paced team, which he’ll like to tell you all about if his recent interviews are any indication. He got about a third of those possessions as a finisher at the rim, where he posted a PPP of 1.2 that places him well above average. He scored 1.34 PPP in transition on limited touches in UCLA’s system, but showed that he can get to the rim and make plays in the open floor.
Unfortunately, the good news ends there for the most part. Holiday shot only 28% from the field on his catch and shoot jumpers, landing him second to last, and his .75 PPP on pull up jumpers leaves a lot to be desired as well. His inordinately large percentage of possessions coming from spot up shots (27.8%) indicates that he spent heavy minutes off the ball -usually when Darren Collison was on the floor. Couple that with his questionable jump shot and you have a clear-cut recipe for disaster, which is exactly how he’d likely describe his first (and likely last) season in the NCAA.
NBADraft.net’s Analysis of Holiday:
NBA Comparison: Flip Murray/Delonte West
Strengths: Long and wiry combo guard … A crafty ballhandler that knows how to get defenders off balance with the dribble … Has a good repertoire of moves and mixes them up well to keep the defense guessing … He has a deceptive 1st step and shifty quickness making him difficult to contain on the perimeter … Is adept using both hands, either when attacking or finishing … Uses his body as well as his length to finish around the basket … Utilizes a variety of floaters and runners in the lane … Likes to pull up from the mid-range where he shoots with balance and good rhythm … Shows good speed in the open court and the ability to maneuver through traffic with the dribble while going full speed … Puts in a good effort defensively, where he enjoys being aggressive and pressuring ballhandlers … Has good hands, anticipates well and uses his wingspan to get many deflections … He is unselfish and possesses good court vision and has shown glimpses of being able to run a team full time …
Weaknesses: Had a very disappointing season in terms of the hype he had coming in from high school … Played out of position for the majority of the season, and struggled finding his comfort zone … Battled inconsistency with his shot all year and it threw the rest of his offensive game off balance … Defenses showed very little respect for his outside shot, daring him to shoot and taking away his driving lanes … His form is a big issue as it throws his stroke off and makes his release inconsistent … He shoots off the side of his head with the shooting elbow way out, as a result his shot is all over the place …He does not have the superb athleticism or strength like many other combo guards … Tends to waste dribbles on the perimeter, killing the flow of the offense because he can be a ball stopper at times … Gets into trouble by over penetrating and then trying to make the spectacular play while in traffic and under pressure … Settles for contested jump shots from outside and takes a lot of fading and off balance attempts inside … Leaves his feet to make passes and gets caught with no options … Is stuck between positions because he has not proven that he can be a consistent scorer or that his decision making will translate to the next level …
Again I think there is a spectrum of his upside and resulting pro performance.
The Great News
We got a perimeter player who at least on the high school and college level proved to be a strong defender and has the NBA size and agility that it’s more likely it can translate to the pro game.
So while we all focused (maybe a bit too much) on the lack of perimeter shooting we did address another major concern in terms of perimeter defense. That is especially great news since the head coach we have now doesn’t have a defense first mentality. Hopefully this helps off-set Lou’s terrible defense and the defense of Andre Miller if he returns or some other stopgap point guard like a Mike Bibby or Steve Blake (if the trade rumors legit – hat tip TK76).
Chip on the shoulder attitude. Will Holiday come out extra motivated to prove the top 16 teams wrong for passing on him because of an out of nowhere shoulder concern and one or two bad workouts? Let’s hope so.
What I Think MUST Happen for Holiday to Reach his Potential
- Hire a damn full-time shooting coach – ASAP! I repeat, hire a full-time, on-location shooting coach! This kid and others on this squad would benefit greatly from having this resource available to them almost 24/7. Whenever they want to workout this guy should be there. This will help aid Holiday’s shooting development which will need to happen for him to reach his potential. In the pros his penetration ability could be limited by sagging defenders if they don’t respect his jumper. And I am not sure he is blazing quick to beat sagging defenders like a Rondo or quite savvy enough to do it like Chris Paul.
- Large % of his minutes are running the show. My BIGGEST concern is we resign Andre Miller or some other veteran point guard and this kid either gets buried on the bench with not enough court time OR they play him far too much off the ball next to Miller or by having Lou handle the ball too much in the back court with him. Remember Eddie Jordan needs to win now, and Stefanski needs to show some real improvement as well. If that happens it would be exactly the same situation he just got out of at UCLA. He needs to get reps running the point so he can take his practice, individual training and coaching to the floor in real games to pull it all together. I really fear his growth could be stunted if he is stuck in combo guard limbo for a while. So while I think it would be beneficial for Holiday to have a solid veteran in front of him to learn from, there must be a balance between learning from the bench and in practice and actual in-game learning at the position. This was a long-term pick, don’t sacrifice his long-term development keeping him on the bench or in combo guard status for the next 2-3 years.
Guarantee We have a Veteran Point for the Next Couple Seasons
From all the comments from Dileo and Stefanski it looks like they don’t expect Holiday to come right in and start. In fact they don’t think he will make an immediate impact by most accounts (although he has other ideas).
“He’s young, and you never want to put a lot of pressure on,” assistant general manager Tony DiLeo said. “I’m sure he’ll get an opportunity. . . . We’ll see how he develops, see how he plays.
“We weren’t looking at him to really come in and make an impact for next season. We’re looking for the future with him.”
Holiday’s response…
Holiday, on a conference call from Madison Square Garden, the site of the draft, said he disagreed with that assessment. “No, honestly, I see myself as an impact player,” he said. “That’s my expectation of myself.” – Philly.com
Personally I doubt he ends up the starter. I really think this means they are bringing Andre Miller back if he comes off his 3-years, $27-$30M. Otherwise I would expect they will look into trades or other cheaper (MLE cheap) free agents for Holiday to tutor under.
With that said, hell, if he comes in and wows people and plays his ass off, I think he should be given a chance for heavy minutes at the point. Like I said I think priority is his development, not trotting Miller or some other old point out there for 35+ minutes a night just to be the 4th or 5th seed in the East at best and maybe a first round playoff series win. Stick with the long-term strategy this pick suggests.
Would it be a way too crazy/bad of an idea to just toss him into the fire right away? Just a thought to talk about.
I am sure I can talk more, but I think this first point guard of the future post has gotten way too long. Continue the conversation from the draft day thread here through the weekend and feel free to post any new Sixers rumors or news here. Pete and I are both away for the weekend so we probably won’t comment too much until Sunday night/Monday.
Taking the Pulse
How do you feel about the Jrue Holiday pick?
- Good, he will be a nice player (34%, 51 Votes)
- Ecstatic, I'm glad he fell to us. He will be a star (26%, 39 Votes)
- Okay, but would have rather had someone else (Lawson, Teague, Maynor) (24%, 36 Votes)
- Unsure, I don't know why we drafted a project (12%, 18 Votes)
- Pissed, I don't think he will be that good in the NBA (4%, 6 Votes)
Total Voters: 150
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{ 127 comments… read them below or add one }
Does anyone know if Holiday came in for a workout?
Guest – No, he wasn’t projected to fall to us. I am not sure if the Sixers attempted to bring him in anyway like they did Brandon Jennings though. And Stefanski said prior to the draft that he was fine with bringing in a guy they hadn’t brought in if someone like this fell.
He did not because his people thought he would be picked well before 17.
Oh ok. Because I knew E.S. said before that he would not draft someone who didn’t work out, but I didn’t know there was an exception if a player dropped.
My problem is this. E.S. said coming into the GM job that he had a plan. A plan that would have us competing for a championship. I can’t seem to wrap my mind around the fact that signing Elton Brand gave us the impression that he wanted to win now. And then he drafts an unproven player, at the PG position. That gives the impression that he wants to win later. Which one is it? I’m all for drafting a player with huge upside and potential, I just want to know what exactly is Stefanski’s plan.
Guest……..That’s a good question. The best I can figure is that Stefanski is hedging his bets. Instead of going all-in with veteran players in an attempt to win now (which could hamstring us in the future) or going with all youth (and forgetting about the present) and hoping it comes together at some point down the road, he’s trying to have it both ways with a mix of old and young.
It seems to me that Stefanski is building his “young core”, just as Billy King did before him. Stefanski must be hoping that as they develop over the next couple years they will mesh with the veterans (some of whom used to be King’s young core) and contribute enough to make us a winner now, while at the same time setting us up for the future.
Year 1 of Stefanski’s plan (I’m choosing to think he does have one) didn’t pan out, to the point that I’m questioning if we are on the right course. So far, Stefanski’s fence-sitting doesn’t seem to be getting us either here (championship contender) or there (in the draft lottery to get a franchise player). Thing is, how long will he continue on this course before he decides to pull the plug. because it sure looks like we might be better off moving some of the veterans, sticking with the youth, and giving it a couple years to come together.
I think this season, with a healthy Brand, will tell us how could we will be with this group of veterans. If it’s not good enough then it’s time to decide one way or the other before we end up repeating the same process in a couple years with another GM assembling his young core, adding them to Stefanski’s guys who are now veterans, etc……
Dannie: Great cautionary point about how the Sixers could bungle Holiday’s development. It is very easy to see this happening by the way.
When all is said and done, it sounds like the Sixers love his size, and think he has a bigger upside than Lawson because of his size and defensive potential.
Correction! First sentence of last paragraph should read:
“I think this season, with a healthy Brand, will tell us how good we will be with this group of veterans.”
Holiday (if he pans out,) Young, Igoudala and Speights is a decent young core, and who knows maybe Lou or Jason Smith can end up being contributors.
Holiday, Igoudala, Young, Brand Speights?
*gritting teeth…trying to pretend like I am not jealous of Denver bringing up a great young PURE pg in Ty Lawson, of Atlanta for drafting Teague, a scoring guard, which is what Holiday is, except Teague is much, much better…and Mayner, who has proved to be rock solid at VCU and a wonderful scoring/distributing PG*
Jrue Holiday…welcome to the Sixers. Please prove me wrong when I think that you were an incredibly over hyped high school athlete that is not a great distributer and does not possess any one particular skill that is impressive other then slashing, which we already have an abundance. Please prove me wrong when I am calling you a better and more efficient Lou Williams that we do not need because we already have Lou Williams and W Green in the combo guard and defensive SG slots.
Please prove to me you are not all unvalidated hype, and that your inconsistency at UCLA is because you were playing an unnatural position…and that the absurdly high turnover rate (see his stats) was because, well, I dont know what your excuse would be, especially given that you played off guard. Please prove to me that you will not jack up jumpshots, and will actually make the extra pass, something we are sorely lacking on this team. Please prove that you are not another of the eight million undersized SG’s or shoot first PG’s that dominate today’s basketball game.
Best of luck, and despite the fact that I am and always will be extraordinarily pissed for ES not taking Ty Lawson and will hold to it…I will admit Jrue that you are an intriguing pick, and I hope the “upside/ceiling” label …a label I detest and despise more then any other in the game of basketball…proves true with you.
The basketball gods are laughing at me, as aside from Tyreke Evans, BJ Mullins and the USC clan, there is no player I ripped more fr entering this draft then Jrue Holiday. Ugh. And for the record, I voted: “Ok with this pick, but wanted another player.”
bski, I think that is a solid plan. Mixing and meshing veterans with young players and hoping they can come together and win. My problem still is the fact that heading into the draft E.S. had to of been thinking Lawson. Would we have started Lawson? If so than there is a huge change of strategy between drafting Lawson and drafting Holiday.
If you draft and start Lawson than you are implying that you want to try and win now. If you draft Holiday than you are implying that you want to get a veteran point guard and wait a couple years for Holiday to develop. Those are two totally different approaches for the next couple of years.
That’s what I don’t get. E.S. couldn’t have predicted Holiday dropping to us so the whole strategy for the future changed just because a nice lottery player dropped. Am I making sense here?
Guest…..Yes, you are making sense. I didn’t get the exact question you were asking before——win now with Lawson vs. win later with Holiday——although I wonder if that’s how Stefanski sees it.
The only thing that seems to fit is that Stefanski and crew didn’t view Lawson as a win now option either. I mean, even though Lawson is developmentally ahead of Holiday he still needs to grow into/acclimate to the pro game and running a team in the NBA, right? Maybe our braintrust is looking at Lawson as having a 1-2 year learning curve and Holiday as having a 2-3 year learning curve, for example. If so, then we wouldn’t be “winning now” with Lawson either.
Continuing on this line of thought, the time we allow for our PG to develop is also time we will use to get Jordan’s system in place and to evaluate the veterans.
If it really doesn’t come together this year (and I sincerely hope that we only use this year to evaluate things), I think we will see some big changes next offseason.
We know that next year (2010-11) will be the last year for both Sam and Willie, so they will have expiring contracts that can be moved. Hopefully we will only sign Miller, or another veteran point guard, to a 2-year deal, so he will be in the same situation. Also, I really feel that if Brand doesn’t show something worth keeping this year, he will be moved next offseason (as long as he plays well enough to show value).
That’s where I was coming from.
Dannie, interesting comment by E.S. on Missanelli!s show; it was between Teague and Lawson if Holliday wasn!t there. Holliday compared to D.West, Lawson reminds me of Jameer, who do you like? I am happy Holliday fell but like Lawson also. One thing about U.C.L.A. . Watched a lot 2 years ago because I loved watching Love but this past year they looked terribly offensively and seemed to not adjust to Love leaving, he just did so much for that team.
Obviously not a win now pick. Last night I was very disappointed with the pick but I’ve been percolating all day with it. It sucks were have officially fallen off the cliff and into the foggy abyss of the “rebuilding” phase but here’s what I do like if Holliday does prove out: We’ll be set up with Iguodala, Young and Holliday at the core of our squad. If these guys grow together and develop into a team together they can be stellar. Obviously Ratliff, Ivey, Rush, Marshall, Andre, Green and Sammy aren’t part of the long term plan. I’ll be thrilled if we find some way to get rid of Sammy and Willie this year and if someone want Elton I say ship him. If they can find someway back into the running for a 2010 Free Agent I’ll jump out of my socks. To me this really puts Lou Williams’ status in question. I thinks he can still turn out very very well but they need to put more pieces around 9, 21, and Jrue and Lou might be the only guy on the roster anybody would want.
And by the way, if Orlando finds some way to resign Turkoglu (very unlikely at this point) they are going to win the NBA title. It won’t matter who Cleveland signs.
Dave T: I also thought Lawson was the pick, but Holiday directly followed Kevin Love, Greg Oden, Dwight Howard and LeBron James as the Gatorade High School Player of the Year. That’s not a bad pedigree, and, to me, doesn’t spell “over-hyped high schooler,” unless 2008 was a very mediocre year for high school ball.
We signed Christmas to our summer league team
I am still a little dissapointed about not getting Lawson, but am becoming more optimistic about Holiday.
I am not interested in putting this kid on the bench, not if he shows in the summer league and in camp that he can play. The “learning from an elder at the same position” thing is BS to me. Thats what coaching and PT are for. If he has “upside” and ability give the kid the ball and pair him with another PG who can shoot (Steve Blake sounds good) and split their minutes, don’t have him coming off the bench to a vet who is going to get 30+ mpg and wants 9 mill at 3yrs, or playing out of position to get PT. He seemed mature beyond his years and mentally ready in his interviews, said all the right things and acts like he’s supposed to be here. That is usually the problem with rookies, they aren’t ready, if he’s as talented as people say, it will work itself out on the court. I would have to think that instantly he’d be an upgrade on D as opposed to Miller (if what people say are right, I don’t know, I’ve seen nothing more of this kid than video glimpses), and if Thad and Speights step it up we can fill the void of Miller’s points. Right?
Ryan F: Awesome find, do you have the link? My god, I would ship out either Lou Williams or Willie Green and replace him with Dionte Christmas for better shooting and good defense before I could blink.
Morty: Normally I’d agree with you…when you’re talking top 5 high school talent, let alone a top 1-2 talent, which many called Holiday, they do tend to pan out. Its usually the 6-25 guys that are very talented but come with more question marks. In fact, if Holiday had left straight from high school, I’d probably be more stoked, because Id be going solely on word of mouth…and the way people talk about him DOES pump me up, if you were to list off his high school accolades.
But it’s in watching him play at UCLA that has underwhelmed me. I just am not seeing this giant star potential with Holiday. It feels to me like a lot of columnists and GMs have been drinking too much hype kool aide, and not actually watched his production. I’m not saying “hes going to fail” or anything…it really is an unknown. But some unknown’s (like Thad Young) showed A LOT more potential in flashes their freshman years, versus Holiday who really looked very inconsistent and did not have the impact expected.
I really think we just made one of the most frequent mistakes made by NBA teams: taking a tweener, or a guy that will be a shoot first (not in a good way) PG to build our future around. When you are talking about putting a core of Iguodala, Thad and Speights together to be the future…which is an excellent core for three years from now after D-Bere and Brand are done…I think it’s essential to get a traditional PG. Lawson definitely is that. Mayner is that. Teague is not (although immensely talented)…and Holiday, in what I saw of Pac-10 UCLA games last year…is also not.
I also don’t buy the “because he was playing off guard spot” thing, because when Collinson was sitting and Holiday did have the rock in his hands, he wasn’t exactly lighting the world on fire. But I will hope for the best.
Man do I wish we had found some way to land Jerryd Bayless before February’s trade deadline. One of the few non-traditional PG’s I think would have been a perfect fit for us.
Reggie Miller should be our shooting coach!
I think it is Holiday’s length and defense that attracted the Sixers the most. Nowadays, length and athleticism are starting to make defense sexy. (Trevor Ariza, Lamar Odom for example).
Early on, I said that he was Royal Ivey and Reggie Evans in one, except better on the offensive end. What I meant was that their loss(es) would not mean much, when you have a player that hustles, rebounds, blocks shots, and makes plays. With that said, I did not say that he was Royal Ivey defensively, but there could be some potential there.
No I couldn’t find it Dave, it was breaking news on Sportsnight.
Don’t get me wrong anyone please, I’m not saying he should be our starter next year, I just want to see this guy on the court at the 1 for more than 10 mpg.
Portland drafted 4 players last night and have a ton overseas, if Miller is a target for them a sign-trade could be very interesting.
Sportsnite*
you would think after watching it 2000 times i’d know how to spell it
Dave T: I have never seen Holiday play, so I’ll have to defer to you on the eyeball test. But he couldn’t have been named the top high school player for nothing!! There has got to be some “there” there. Nothing I’ve read about him says shoot first PG, and in fact he didn’t really shoot that much at UCLA. I take comfort that his 2 PT FG % was 55%, and when I look at clips, he seems to have nice form on his jumper – belied of course by his terrible 3 PT FG%. Maybe he really was just thrown for a big time loop playing at SG?
Here’s hoping. And here’s hoping that if the Sixers really do believe that he can be the PG of the future, they do not accidently turn him into a combo guard, as Dannie mentioned.
This is what I’m thinking the depth chart is going to look like at the moment:
1 – Andre, Lou, Jrue
2 – Iguodala, Willie
3 – Thad, Kapono
4 – Brand, Speights
5 – Sammy, Jason Smith
I’m thinking Jrue gets time at the 1 with Lou at the 2 to bail him out of the jams.
deepsixer:
Portland sign and trade for Miller?!
Hello Jerryd Bayless!!! A guy can dream can’t he…
Chris McC, Jerryd Bayless would be an awesome pick up however he doesn’t give us that defense and 3pt shooting. I would go with the trusty veteran S. Blake. He can run the offense smoothly and can shoot when he’s left open.
bski, I see what you are saying. I was thinking of Lawson as a win now pick which I guess isn’t the case. I still want to know officially from E.S.
Are we a win now or win later team?
and
What were we heading into this offseason?
Because if the answers of those two questions don’t match each other than I have serious doubts that our front office has this “plan” to contend.
Guest: Steve Blake would make a nice stop gap solution, and can certainly run an offense…but Jerryd Bayless was not just a good, but GREAT shooter in college from behind the arc, and while not a great defender, was very physical and clearly dedicated to improving in that area.
Bayless, for me, is like a quicker, more physical and athletic version of Sam Cassell/Bibby…that gets teammates involved as well. Dude has cajones of steel to take a big shot, took over games numerous times, and was a difference maker in every sense of the word. I doubt Portland would even consider including him in any trade to us, if an A-Miller thing was to be discussed. He was an absolute beast at Arizona.
Bayless, imo, is everything that I think Ed Stefanski thinks Jrue Holiday is…and is wrong about.
Agree with you and Bski as far as the confusion of “direction” this team is going in.
Yep Chris that is a dream.
Blake is attainable from all accounts, while certainly not the greatest PG, he can shoot, has a good ast/tov and you don’t have to feel bad about him sitting if Jrue does well. Worst case you have Blake as your starting PG, he only has 2yrs/9 mill left on his contract (i think) and Portland seemed to do pretty well with him playing 30 mpg, even though their roster as a whole is better than ours I’d say.
Don’t need 2 young guards anyway, and I am not on the Bayless wagon anyway. I guess he was a good college player, I wouldn’t know, but he didnt do so hot last year with the little time he saw
Bayless would be a gift, Blake would be essentially a younger, better-shooting version of Miller, would be happy to have him. I actually think Blake’s in his contract year.
Anybody think that Portland is willing to trade Pryzbilla? I know Oden’s their guy at Center but he gets hurt about every 20 minutes. We sure as hell could use his rebounds and defense. And we’d be rid of him in the 2010 offseason (2 years @ 6mil and change) if he didn’t work out.
Again, I just have to trust our GM and staff that we have another Thad Young type draft pick. He seems to have a good head on his shoulders. Hopefully, he gets assimilated to the NBA game this year and is ready to takeover in year two.
sfw……That has got to be the approach the Sixers take with Holiday. Otherwise they run the risk of getting in the situation that Dannie mentioned, stunting his development.
bski, Will be another interesting off season. Sixers better do more than this. Gotta feeling AMILL is coming back. I hope with only a 2 year deal. Willie better not be the starting 2.
sfw……..It had better be an interesting off season. I’m figuring it’s pretty likely that Millerwill be back, too. If not, that sign-and-trade with Portland sounds promising. Getting Gortat for the MLE would be a big help. Whatever, because we need more than what we’ve got right now to have a chance.
Gotta feeling that Portland will be getting Heinrich not AMILL. Would love to get him for the Sixers. That would be a nice backourt going forward.
Dannie – I don’t think I would read anything into Holiday playing off the ball with Collison running the point. They did the exact same thing with Westbrook and Collison for two seasons (but Westbrook barely played in his frosh season).
I wrote a long post about this, but I’ll sum it up quickly. In two years, when Dalembert, Green and Kapono come off the books, Iguodala will be coming into his prime, Thad, Speights, Lou and Smith will all be between 23-25. IMO, that’s really their window for contention. E.S. and T.D. had to believe Jrue will be the better player than Lawson at that point, that’s why they made the pick. I agree, personally. I like Lawson, I think he’ll be a productive point, but I also don’t think he’s going to get much better than he is right now, and I also think he’s going to be a defensive liability, due to his height. It’s just a fact, length matters in the NBA.
Time will tell, but I really believe the Sixers are making decision that will keep the franchise moving forward while planning for 2011 as the beginning of true contention.
We added a really nice piece to our roster in getting Holliday.It took some big balls not to pick Lawson when the 17th pick came,all the work and scouting and interviews plus pumping the fan base say what a fit he is for our team. The way it went down felt so wrong.so wrong. On the other end of it, if our pick was 5 or 6 picks earlier and and it was possible for us to chose him, the Philly media would have pump him up and make all the feel good stories that we fans live for in the off season. Jrue Holliday is a good piece for the Sixers we got very lucky getting him.
As usual, a good read. Thanks for putting those resources together Dannie.
I do think we need to forget Lawson for a second and realize we are talking about the 17th pick here. Now, #17 has been a bit of a sweet spot in the draft the past few years (Josh Smith and Granger.) But generally in the 15-20 range you have a 40%bust, 30% marginal, 20%good and 10%star chances.
Lawson and Holiday are both good picks considering those odds. I also think you are selling short Holiday’s upside, by that really means little unless he reaches his potential.
Overall, a Thad Young type pick- but better for these reasons:
1. Thad was a bit of a reach at 12, where Holiday a steal at 17.
2. Thad was at a position of strength (SF)
3. PG’s is a higher value position IMO, and the teams biggest need not just now but down the road.
Ed has been walking a tightrope by having a borderline plaoff team evry year. Usually if you always pick in the teens your talent level decreases and you backslide into the lottery.
They have done a great job getting lucky with Thad, Speights and now Holiday. In a way they have gotten lottery level talent guys without suffering through horrible seasons. I give DiLeo a lot of credit for this. He not only knows talent,but has his pulse on who other teams will take. Iguodala joked about how DiLeo calmly called out each of the frst 15 picks.
tk76……..Sounds good to me. Now we just need the lottery level talent we’ve picked up with draft picks in the teens to get us sliding forward. Curious to see how far they take us.
Don’t know if they have a true elite star on their roster, but at least their are some candidates.
If you need 4 top level player to contend I’m fairly confident about Iguodala and Thad. Would say the same for Brand if he could return to form (who knows?) That means either Speights or Holiday need to max out on their potential for this team to have the talent to compete with the top teams.
Then you also need chemistry, health, coaching and luck.
But at least its worth watching. better than the backsliding AI/Cwebb days.
That gm of the Wolves did some crazy things but I love how he communicates to his fan base. My comments and thoughts on the draft coming up.
http://www.sctimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090627/SPORTS/106270034&template=printart
Good communication… but still a batty decision. You can’t tell me the best choice for them is to pick 2 PG’s at 5/6. Sure Rubio and Flynn can play in the same backcourt, but is that really the best use of their talent?
My guess is that in 2 years or sooner one of them is traded.
Tk76, agreed. The pick there should have been Curry, but hey that’s there problem.
I took these last 2 days to read all the posts, and to also adjust to us picking Holiday over Lawson.
I enjoyed Dannie and Dave T firing F bombs with there initial reaction. Reminds me of the day after Sammy did his 1 millionth stupid thing of the season. I came in here dropping F bombs. Hey were passionate fans, it’s all appreciated.
That Brandon came in here like a Cowboy huh? Lol, Brandon while we don’t know each other outside of this blog we all know of each other in the blog world.
Dannie much of what you said basically relates to exactly the way that I am feeling. At first I was pissed that we didn’t draft Lawson, but I knew that we got great value on this guy. I watched a lot of UCLA games for collison but I noticed Holidays defense. How could you not, he certainly flashed there. This guy wasn’t a SG, he needs the ball in his hands. He is a pure PG, so maybe we really did just steal him. I would have preferred Lawson, but I can be sold on this guys positives.
This actually goes back to a conversation that i had with Morty and JJG. Brian actually made the same point above, this is a 2 year plan. Until we get rid of or make use of Sammy and Willie G’s money were are just developing. This pick seconds that developmental plan.
Dave I will not haze Stefanski for this pick, just yet. He get’s 2 or 3 years, But he better be right!
I will go nuts on Stefanski if he signs Miller for more then 2 years. I would rather just throw Jrue into the fire and let his start. Also I would start Speights at center and back him up with Smith. Let these guys develop as much as possible because like I said before, were about 2 years away from blossoming.
I’d go with the throw him into the fire approach if we were not starting anew with the Princeton offense this year. It will be a huge adjustment for everone, and it will really help to have someone with experience (even if not elite talent) as the lead guard.
I have a hunch they end up with Bibby, Blake or Miller for the next 2 seasons. The 1st two have experience in Jordan’s offense. And Miller has experience overall and knows the team.
Putting Holiday out there from day one might jump start his development, but at the expense of the rest of the teams adjustment. I’d say the same for Lawson- although probably he could be ready to take over 6-18 months sooner.
tk76…….I’ve heard that Kidd might be a possibility too. Any chance Jordan can get him here? You’ve got your ear to the ground. Have you read anything on the likelihood of that?
No, I just repeat what is said at realgm. Neither Tom Moore or SF1976 have specifically mentioned Kidd as far as I know. I know a lot of people have talked about Kidd and Jack as potential targets.
SF says Miller wants 3 years at 9-10M and the Sixers want 2 years.
I would think Bibby is the best fit, but I’m not sure how they get him for the MLE. As for Kidd, don’t you think he goes to a contender?
Yeah, most likely. Just wondering if Kidd’s previous relationship with Jordan would make a difference.
Greek & tk76…………Found an article on espn.com about Ricky Rubio’s situation with Minny. It talks about Kahn’s letter and why they selected Flynn also. It makes a lot more sense out the whole thing.
I don’t think Minny is in too bad of a situation. I still would have picked Curry with one of those picks though. The Pacers had the worst draft I think. Hansbrough at 13 is a huge stretch in my opinion.
Would you guys want Kidd here? I’m wanting a point guard that will get us to the playoffs the next two years and I’m not so sure that Kidd can do that. He would have to be playing limited minutes the second year and maybe even this upcoming season. The only reason the Mavericks made the playoffs is because Jason Terry was the backup point guard (and Dirk had an amazing season). I love Kidd as a player, but wouldn’t Miller/Bibby/Blake all be a better option if we want to make the playoffs both years.
Kidd is 37 right? Can’t imaging he wants to be on this team.
Guest……….I’m not saying that I want Kidd. Just heard his name thrown out and got curious about him as a short-term possibilty is all.
He knows Jordan. He knows the offense. Both of those things could help make the transition to a new coach and a new system much smoother for everyone else. Also, if we are of a mind to give Holiday a lot of minutes right out of the gate to accelerate his development, Kidd playing limited minutes could be advantageous. Think?
Latest from SF1976:
“being told that if miller isnt here….we think blake is a perfect short term fit for us. bibby seems to want more than MLE and more than 1 or 2 years.
i would find a way to get outlaw on the court if we got him..he can shoot too..rather him than webster cuz of the short term contract. i think its a good deal for both teams.
we may look to move lou williams after his byc expires(that may be sometime in august) for a pure SG.
dalembert….yeah…..begging…no major interest unless we take an albatross contract…..”
Thanks, tk76.
bski, Kidd could help us in many ways considering he knows the offense and coach. I actually never that of it like that.
But I would still have questions as to how much Kidd would actually be playing and producing on the court. Do you think knowing the offense and coach translates to wins and playoff berths? It might I don’t really know. But if we want Holiday to play a lot of minutes than it would work out with Kidd because Jason would be playing limited minutes. If we want a true playoff point guard than I think we go with one of the 3 veterans.
You bring up an interesting point though, I guess it depends on how well we would be able to transition to a new offense/coach WITHOUT Kidd. If we can make the adjustments without Kidd than I don’t think it would be necessary to have him.
The sign in trade with Portland is also very interesting. Portland is going to be good in the next couple years or so.
Correction in the first sentence above
*I actually never thought of it like that.*
I need to start proof-reading.
Guest…….Yeah, that’s where I was coming from with it. I mean, last year Kidd was good with the ball (3.8/1 to/asst), good from the line (82%), and good from 3-pt range (40.6%), so he could help in a lot of areas.
You mentioned that Dallas made the playoffs because of Terry and Nowitzki. By the same token, we could make the playoffs with Iguodala, Brand, and Young.
Again, I was only considering Kidd if things fell through with Miller. I’m sure tk76 is right that either A) we have no shot at getting him for a reasonable short-term contract, or B) he is not interested in coming here. Got me thinking though.
who is sf1976?
SF1976 is a poster at realgm who says his friend is an insider. Whether he is full of it or not is debatable and has been argued ad nauseum. IMO his ‘insider info’ is interesting speculation and I don’t completely care if it is bogus or not. He has scooped some minor signings and was roughly on the ball about the AI trade. He definitely knows a lot of details like where players are working out in the summer and small stuff that is rarely in the press.
The stuff he puts out is typically credible sounding, guarded and interesting enough to start 500 post discussions. In fact he was the source of the potential Sam to Char trade a few weeks that got picked up by the mainstream media.
great read Bski
Dannie, if your bored over the summer I for one would love a post comparing the young core of different teams.We talk about what we have but Ok. City, N.Jersey and a few others are pretty impressive also, just a thought. I think a sign-trade of A.Miller for Blake and Outlaw would be the perfect finish to this summer.Our new coaches possible rotation ;
Brand,Dalembert,Smith
Young,Spieghts
Outlaw,Kapono
Iggy,Williams,Green
Blake,Holliday
That would be a fun team to watch!!!
So our roster consists of
1 Jrue
2 Iggy
3 Thad
4 Brand
5 Smith
6 Speights
7 Sammy the clown
8 Kapono
9 Green
10 Lou the terrible
11 Christmass?
12 Miller or MLE player
13 who the hell knows
Even with Christmass were still short a player, I guess there saving that slot for a vet to take the min. I would prefer they use that slot to try and develop someone like a paul harris type. On paper vets are good to have but our vets didn’t do a thing to prevent the selfishness that caroded these team last season.
Greek, when E.S. was interviewed on E.S.P.N. radio he stated a year in Europe would be good for Dionte and the thing he had to work on was being able to come off the bench and hit the jay cold, rather than be the volume shooter he was at Temple.By his statements he seemed to think his upside was as a role player off the bench eventually.
Without Christmass were 9 deep, we need him.
I think a great bench option to keep an eye on would be N Jersey. They already had an abundance of swingmen type players, and now after the draft have even more:
-Terence Williams
-Bobby Simmons
-Trenton Hassell
-Jarvis Hayes
-Yi Jianlian
-Courtney Lee
-C Douglas-Roberts
I’m a HUGE fan of picking up former great college players that were unable to get PT solely due to log jam issues. In this case: Chris Douglas Roberts. Because last year he was (wrongly) a 2nd round pick, they have an inexpensive team option on him this year. Given their glut of SG/SF’s, it’s possible they don’t sign him.
If this happens, I don’t know why we wouldn’t scoop up an 18 ppg college scorer that had a nice outside shot for next to nothing. He should also have a huge chip on his shoulder given that everyone doubted him, and is writing him off because he was injured for a good chunk of last year and buried on their bench behind vets.
Random draft note: I cannot wait until the day comes that Memphis continually kicks themselves when they realize Jordan Hill was far and wide the best big man in this draft.
No one can argue Hasheem Thabeet is a great shot blocker…but the guy has a basketball IQ worse then Dalembert. He is slower then Roy Hibbert in making his post moves, one of the worst passers out of the post I have ever seen for a 7 footer, has no idea how to set a pick, is clueless for how to move without the ball, has no recognition of plays unfolding, constantly allows quicker defenders to run around him for rebounds, and his offense, while improved, is still inept. Watching this guy off the ball on offense is literally laughable.
Whereas Jordan Hill: is tough, will never be bullied, showed incredibly improved footwork over three years, has his fundamentals down and ready to build on it, great hands around the basket (doesn’t miss those 2-5 footers), is a very good defender, can run the floor, boxes out, and has clearly improved every facet of his game every year for the Wildcats. Not saying he is an all star, far from it…and in a normal draft, he should be in the 7-12 pick range. But this kid is a lock for a 16 and 10 with 2 blocks in a year or two.
I believe Toronto will also be kicking themselves for not taking Earl Clark. If you are going to gamble on a young future NBA small forward…why not go with the guy that has SHOWN he’s had a world of talent (Clark), as opposed to a guy that has shown he’s a great athlete and had only occassional flashes in only a month and a half of the entire season (Derozen).
And what is the deal with people saying a guy like Lawson, or college juniors, “can only get so much better”. That’s crazy talk. You can be 20, 24, 27, and 30 and still be adding and improving to your game on remarkable levels. I understand it’s one thing to SHOW NONE OF YOUR TALENT YET…like, oh I dont know, say Jrue Holiday…and maybe have the potential to immensely improve on that. But to say “Lawson is what he is, he doesnt have that much room for getting better”…damn. Take a look around the league at the hard work and effort it takes to really fulfill your potential as a player. College juniors and seniors make leaps and bounds of improvement as well as one and done’s.
Lawson will improve a bunch- because he has to. Playing PG in the NBA is a huge step up. Look how many years it took Jameer to reach his potential. He was a decent PG from age 22-25, but really put it all together last year ate age 26.
Now Jameer and Ty have to work on different things in terms of reaching NBA success, but the point still applies. Ty should be a good NBA PG, but he will be a lot better in 4 years then he is right now. He is more NBA ready than Holiday to run a ream, but that is a relative statement.
On the flip side, Holiday’s physical attributes may help him be NBA ready in a non pure PG role for a couple. The Princeton offense won’t require him to be a pure PG. Just to make good basketball decsions within the framework of the offense (2 and 3 man games.) That is very different from having to be a floor general before age 21. This is a good situalion for Holiday to be able to quickly learn on the job.
Dave T., I think the “is what he is junior and senior” only applies to Dukies. See Paulus, Greg.
Have to say I agree with Dave T. I have scratched my head for years over why teams seem to place less value/pass over/draft lower/not draft players who have played 3 or 4 years in college who have actually produced/shown what they can do in favor of players who have only played 1 or 2 years and have not shown nearly as much. It’s like the thinking is that the guys who have played more years, even though they are more developed to begin with, have less time to develop further, so teams think the better route is to take the more unproven, less developed player because he has more time to possibly develop.
As far as Thabeet and the rest of his ilk, you know the tired old saying: You can’t teach height. Much tougher, if not near impossible, to teach a more skilled smaller guy to play bigger than his size, so teams err the other way hoping they can teach and develop the skills of a guy whose already got the size.
I don’t know, maybe it’s just me but sometimes I get the feeling that instead of evaluating and drafting guys based on what they are and what they do, their skill sets and such, with an eye toward further development, they are are simply looking for “NBA bodies” that they see as having a high ceiling/high upside and figuring they can teach them everything else. It just doesn’t seem to be working all that well, IMO, as the league is jam packed with “athletes” and lacking in “basketball players”.
From RealGM, via Ric Bucher/ESPN:
“According to a Twitter post from Ric Bucher, Portland has interest in both Andre Miller and Hedo Turkoglu. In order to acquire Miller, the Blazers would likely have to complete a sign and trade transaction. But if Portland secures Turkoglu, it would likely be a free agent signing.”
Potential players involved: If Andre is asking for a 3 year, $10 million deal, I think it’s safe to assume he will at least guy 3 years, $27 million. That means whoever we get in return has to be within 25% of $9 million (I might be slightly off with the % difference under the salary cap rules). The likely mix of players that could be involved in a sign and trade deal with us, from a fiscal and talent point of view, would be:
I personally think if we were able to land Jerryd Bayless, it would be a total coup, and a FASCINATING backcourt going into the future with him and Jrue Holiday. There is no team I watched more then Arizona the year they had Bayless, and he is was an absolute offensive monster at the college level. I put absolutely no stock into the tiny minutes he got last year i the NBA, as he saw mostly pine with all the guards and swingmen Portland has on their roster. Can nail the 3 point shot, has a first step that can burn most defenders, excellent at turning the corner, has a shockingly good ability to finish in when driving into traffic, has balls of steel and loves the spotlight, plays physical, and is a total assasin.
Martell Webster is known for having a smooth 3 point stroke, and he has proven the more minutes he logs and experience he has, the more comfortable shooting behind the arc he is. Definitely an intriguing, and imo, undertalked about option in the NBA landscape. Granted, coming off an injury year, but he is still very young, and with patience could begin to blossom as Outlaw did with time.
Travis Outlaw would provide some redundancy on our end, but has turned into a very nice player: a jmp through the roof athlete SF that excels in the open court, can slash and burn by an opponent, has good handle, height (6′9), and very solid defense. He has also, like Ariza of the Lakers, slowly added a jumpshot into his game, making him a better offensive weapon as he has grown to regularly hit the 18 footer, and the last two years has hit the 3 at a clip of 40% and 38% (last year a total of roughly 90 threes).
Pryzbilla is the quintessential backup center…toughness, defense, a little shot blocking, doesnt back down from anyone, is mature, professional, has his head on his shoulders, and knows his role.
Steve Blake – Probably one of the top 5 backup PG’s in the league, and has logged minutes as both starter and backup throughout his career. Excellent floor leader, has great court vision, very good passer, a guy that will wrack up assists with not a lot of minutes, an unselfish player. Won’t provide too much offensive punch; has a terrible mid-range game, sometimes settles for too many pull up jumpers, and can occasionally hit the 3 (his ability as a shooter, imo, overrated).
Trading a resigned A-Miller for any package of 2-3 of the above players, no matter who they are, would only serve to help our team’s future by bolstering our bench, future prospects, shooting, athleticism and leadership. I would love it if a deal went through. Likely the sticking point will be Portland being willing or not willing to take on a third year of an A-Miller contract during the twilight of his career.
(ugh…Dannie/Pete, the spacing on my comp got screwed, if there’s any way you could put spacing between paragraphs and each player in the above post, Id appreciate it so its actually legible!)
Dave, the realGM initial rumor from SF1976 has been Miller for Blake+Outlaw.
Webster has a long contract and injury concerns. Bayless is not available (per SF.)
Blake has played for Eddie Jordan in the Princeton Offense. He is a natural fit as a placeholder PG until Holiday is ready. As I said above, the learning curve for a PG in the Princeton offense could be an advantage,.. Guards have to run 2 and 3 man games as opposed to being complete floor generals. This should make for an easier adjustment for Holiday.
Interesting conversation going on here.
Suede- I like your idea about looking at the core of this team in relation to other clubs. Will see how the rest of the summer unfolds and do that before the season starts.
BSKI – Also about the draft and picking young unpolished, less skill athletes who are unproven vs. more polished, producing upperclassmen that is just how the league is. Since it’s about money and star power GMs/owners etc. are always on the lookout for the next star not the next 15-year NBA workman who just goes out and has a productive, yet none-jaw-dropping career. Fans don’t pay for two things
If you are a losing club they always are on the lookout for a star that can fill the seats despite the losing. Sadly because history suggests guys rarely reach their potential the losing clubs who take that approach remain boring and continue to lose. Takes a good GM to build a winning team and create excitement by blending the need for on-court producers, good character guys, leaders AND sifting through the glut of unskilled-to-moderately skilled athletes with raw talent to find diamonds in the rough without going overboard by bringing in raw player, after raw player. On top of that it takes a good GM to also have an effective player development system in place for in coming youngsters to give them the best chance to improve (that means right/adequate personnel and the right process of development). That is why I don’t bash GMs as much as many because I think ppl have no clue how difficult it is to do that job and all that is involved. That’s why our site is called ReclinerGM.
No offense, but Steve Blake isn’t one of the top five PG in the Western Conference, let alone the league. He is decent PG, but not at that level.
I think he said back-up PG’s.
Mea culpa, my bad. Read it wrong. I stand — sit — corrected. Sorry.
I am going to get off the Lawson – Holiday debate because well we got Holiday and not Lawson. Nothing I can do about that at this point. But do want to chime in on comments by Dave T and TK76.
While I agree whole-heatedly that any player can improve their game at any time (hell I am 28 and 5-years removed from playing DIII college ball and still getting better) What I believe its all about from an NBA standpoint is how quickly and likely a player can reach max potential given all the circumstances. To me max potential is where your skill development and athletic development intersect at the highest point. The athletic development side of the equation is much easier to attain high levels so I think NBA ppl prefer the younger guys who show some talent because they have a longer period of time to increase their skill before their bodies hit a point where athletic development starts to erode from age and wear and tear.
The tough part is understanding that guys simply don’t reach skill potential that often. They just don’t. And where I have issue is with guys who aren’t too far off in age (19 vs. 22 in the case of Lawson and Holiday during this upcoming NBA season) but are clearly pretty far off in terms of skill level.
What the NBA ppl are hoping is that the 19-year-old kid will catch up in skill level to the other guys when they hit the same age and I think that is significantly easier said than done. Now sure superior athletic or physical traits can help, but I am a FIRM believe athleticism is overrated and skilled and high basketball IQ players should be more coveted than athletes because at the end of the day those guys win more. Guys show pretty earlier on the type of skill development progression and understanding of the game they will have. What tends to happen in my opinion is the athletes don’t develop more skill because they simply rely too heavily or almost exclusively on their athleticism. So over time they skill increases only slightly, and when they start to lose some inches on the vert, lose some quickness and strength they haven’t developed the skill necessary to continue to the play the game at a high level.
TK76 – “Just to make good basketball decsions within the framework of the offense (2 and 3 man games.)”
That is significantly easier said than done, I wouldn’t use “just” as a qualifer at all. I think it downplays the difficulty of accurately reading situations (whether its 2, 3 man games or in transition), knowing all the options, knowing which is the right reaction for the situation and then being capable of executing. And all of that is on top of proving he actually does has good court vision worthy of having the ball in his hands a lot as the point guard of the future. Offensively I think he has a long, long way to go. He will get on the court because of defense, on offense I can see him being a mess for quite a while.
Another thing, I am not sure why everyone just assumes the Princeton offense makes things easier AND that it means there isn’t a dominate ballhandler directing action. Unless Eddie Jordan is constantly dictating from the sideline where the ball goes, what 2 and 3 man games to run and who is involved it still takes a floor general to read how the game is going, where the mismatches are, who’s hot, who needs a shot and make the right calls. No offense just runs itself.
Just saying I think we be best served to take a wait and see approach instead of making assumptions and jumping to those conclusions like that about this offense.
Dave nice thought but there is no chance that NJ gives lets CDR go, none. Also saying that Dalembeart has a higher basketball IQ then Thabeet is crazy and not possible. He will be a better player then Sam because he is smarter. a better rebounder coming out of college. Plus Sammy is a proven loser. locker room cancer, selfish waste of space.
I agree with you on Bayless, would love to have him. But if it’s Blake and Outlaw that’s cool too.
If the Blazers want to sign Turkoglu as a free agent, they won’t have enough money to do so if they pick up their options on Blake and Outlaw to send them to the Sixers for Miller. Could be a problem.
Dannie…….Your explanation in the first half of #78 is exactly what I was driving at (with an assist from #74) in my post #70. You probably got the answer out better than I got the question out.
Also, I wasn’t the one who suggested looking at our young core vs. those of other clubs(wish I did because it is a good idea). It was Suede in post #62.
Dannie: Wow, I have to 2nd Bski there…your post on #78 was really nicely spelled out, and a point I was trying (note: trying!) to get out properly. I agree especially with what you are saying about the 19 vs. 22 year olds, and how the NBA mindset treats the two differently in skills vs. athleticism. Nicely done. (also, thanks for spacing out my earlier post).
Bski: Ditto for your end of #70.
Backup PG: RealGM reporting Utah is not expected to resign Brevin Knight. He has always been one of my favorite backup PG’s in the NBA…the guy is a throwback, classic unselfish PG in the purest sense, and would be a wonderful veteran to have on our squad. An assist machine that flat out knows how to thread the needle and get scorers the ball where and when they need it. Brings good defense too. That said, his shot is weak, so perhaps Blake would be a better fit in that trade scenario.
Tom: You make a good point, and it’ll be interesting to see whether Portland values adding a vet PG or vet SF to the team.
Question for the masses: Not saying this will or could happen, and certainly no iota of rumors about it currently exist, but just thought I’d throw this out there. Would people, straight up, trade our hopefully future PF in Mareese Speights for OKC’s newly drafted James Harden? While Speights has good value around the league, I don’t think he has quite THAT much value yet…but it would be an intriguing move that makes basketball sense for both teams, given OKC’s huge need for a PF.
I would not do it myself, as I think, unlike Holiday, Speights current skill, athleticism, and ceiling of where that could reach if he is mentored properly could really push him to be a 19 and 10 guy eventually…and you don’t just toss away 6′10 prospects that already have a good skill level and footwork on the offensive end. That said, Harden is a polished college player that would fill our most pressing immediate need: a SG that can shoot 3’s, score, pass, and play defense.
Dave T,
Your trade proposal is interesting. I think we all agree that in the next 3-4 years we will have a core of: Iggy, Thad, Speights, Brand?, Holiday?.
We pretty much know what we have with those first three, but the other two are still question marks. It might just be me, but I don’t want to trade a valuable piece of our team just for another question mark. Draft experts have been talking about how Blake Griffin is the only “sure thing” in this draft. I love Harden as a player but I think we know more about Speights being a good player than we do Harden. I don’t mean to overrate Speights, but like I’ve discussed above… I want to know exactly what kind of team we have by 3 years from now. I want to know then: Can we compete for a championship?
Does Harden give us a better chance at competing 3 years from now than Speights does? I don’t think so. It’s a close one though.
Tom Moore said:
“If the Blazers want to sign Turkoglu as a free agent, they won’t have enough money to do so if they pick up their options on Blake and Outlaw to send them to the Sixers for Miller. Could be a problem.”
Couldn’t they execute the S&T 1st and then go after Turk? or would the S&T push them too close to the cap?
Dannie, I agree with your post on Lawson and Holiday in general terms. But, I’m more hopeful for Holiday’s development than you are. It sounds like you are using his UCLA performance as a baseline, where I think we can take something from his entire body of work.
Holiday being a mediocre off the ball player does not in itself say he is equally unprepared as a PG. He was a PG until college. His mediocre jumper and prior experienceonly as the guy controlling the ball made his switch off the ball difficult (but likely helped him in the long run.) Although I doubt anyone can go from HS PG to NBA without an adjustment, its not like the guy is a SG we are trying to teach the PG.
You can download the second half of the VCU game at a Bruins forum. Collison was benched for foul trouble and Holiday ran the show at the point. He was very effective. Per DiLeo, Ed (and Derek Bodner) the limited time Holiday was at the point his game really popped.
Just to use an extreme example (I love hyperbole)… Imagine if Lebron was asked to play off the ball as a catch and shoot guy? He would still be great, but it would not be the best way to showcase his gifts with the ball. A lot of respected BB people think Holiday would have been a force at PG next year, and maybe even this past season if he had been given the chance… we have to hope they were right.
TK76 – The thing is, I believed Lawson to be the better, more polished and skilled player now with potential to get better and it would take a good deal for Holiday to catch up to Lawson’s current level let alone surpass him. That has always been my point of contention and nothing more than my opinion on the subject. I have nothing against the Holiday specifically actually more so I am just not an “upside” and “potential” kind of guy in general.
Every year “respected BB people” talk about kids like this with “upside.” But not much is said 5-10 years down the line in evaluation of those “respected BB people” when all the upside very rarely comes to fruition and these guys “eye” proved wrong. All you hear about is the one’s they infrequently get right. In my opinion finding upside guys that actually pan out over time is like searching for a needle in a haystack. It’s extremely difficult and I claim no ability whatsoever to do it.
In fact I think it’s a much better strategy to take guys with all three key elements:
In my opinion Ty has shown all three with a number of observable skills while Holiday’s most redeeming traits lies in his upside and defense. Bigger gamble for a bigger reward that just tends not to be paid out frequently enough for my taste.
About Holiday, look I am fully aware he played off the ball for probably the first time in 4 years of playing the game. That is a transition, sure, it’s tough, ok I get it. I’ve done it on a lower level myself (going from off the ball playing next to a DI player in Marques Green in HS to being a starting point guard in college) but great players or at least supremely talented players (which we all assume Holiday is) figure it out and more importantly figure out how to still be productive in the mean time. It’s a bit worrisome that a guy talented enough to be considered the best high school basketball player (please note the term “basketball player” not just point guard), to be recruited and starting at a top program, that he wasn’t able to find a way to be more productive and efficient given that he played consistent minutes all year albeit out of position.
Also while I understand Holiday played off the ball a lot that doesn’t necessarily mean he destine to struggle or take a bunch of catch and shoot jumpers either. Smart players know their strengths and weaknesses and adjusts. He could have used his point guard skills on the wing as a distributor more than he did in my opinion. Also the biggest question mark for me is was his shooting numbers a 1-year fluke or more indicative of his true shooting ability? I don’t know nor do I feel strongly either way.
I think you have to take some of the total body of work (HS) with a grain of salt. The dude was a 6′4 point guard in HS. He had mismatches regularly and was physically dominating on that level. That part doesn’t translate entirely to the NBA. What does ALWAYS translate is skills. All any player has to do to win me over is show me they have skills regardless of their size.
To sum it up while you are more optimistic than I am I think there are a lot of indicators to the contrary that suggest he will be another athlete (not elite either) with upside that doesn’t really pan out that will turn out okay at best in terms of pro performance. He has great pro potential I do acknowledge that. I am just not one to bank on it much.
I really have no firm opinion comparing Lawson vs Holiday. I can see both sides of the argument, and a lot of the reasoning relies on outside analysis (such as Reina who runs RealGM thinks Holiday should have gone #4. he has watched a lot ore of him than me, but I have no clue how much weight to give his analysis.)
I’m just happy with what we got at #17, while realizing there likely will be someone drafted later who turns out to be a better player. That guy could very well be Lawson.
As I said above, I think Lawson will improve a bunch- and he will have to to make the jump to being equally productive in the NBA. For example, Lawson needs to add to his midrange game because he will be able to finsih anear the rim less in the NBA- but I’m guessing he will. My point being, we are not comparing today’s Jameer Nelson to Holiday (and Lawson may turn out even better.) We are comparing to players who will need to adapt their games to the NBA.
Lawson will adapt quicker, and is closer to a finished product. But that does not make Holiday a bad or the wrong pick. I’m hoping he succeeds much like Thad seems to be. I guess time will tell. But I’m really not bothered by the other guys on the board. There will be plenty of time to mourn the Hughes/Peirce type misteps if Holiday turns out to be a bust. But, honestly, at #17 I’m not really that worried. #17 could make your franchise, but getting a dud at #17 is more the norm than anything.
BTW, when Young was drafted there were a lot of analysts who where hugely disappointed by his year at G.T. Not just the raw numbers, but the passive way he played and his lack of toughness and rebounding. That does not prove anything other than it is often a leap of faith Drafting guys who you only saw play at age 18. Obviously, Holiday (and Young at #12) were risky picks.
On the flip side, Speights at Fla was hugely productive annd just lacked PT. There were some work ethic concerns, but otherwise he was a no brainer at #16.
TK76 - For what it’s worth for a while now I have said and still have concerns about Thad’s rebounding, passive play, lack of toughness and none existent play-making ability for teammates.
If you look at his college production it’s very similar to his NBA production. Pretty efficient scorer, none-assist man, marginal rebounder a steal and a half a game. His college three point shooting has yet to translate to the NBA line at this point.
He is getting better but not enough to the point I think he is the stud others do. He is a nice player, with a ways to go to even catch up to Andre Iguodala in my opinion.
And I don’t at all buy the Thad/Speights and Holiday comparison. I think it’s more wishful thinking than anything else. Those guys produced offensively in college and did so pretty efficiently in there time there, that along with having some observable skill and upside. Again Holiday’s lack of production as the best HS basketball player should be worrisome regardless that he played out of position.
Can someone explain to me what exactly the Bucks are doing?
Draft Jennings, restrict Sessions prepared to let Villanueva walk? Do they like Amir Johnson, Joe Alexander and “player I have never heard of” that much? Do they not like Charlie that much? Two point guards of the future?
Yeah, that’s a bit off. Earlier today I read John Schuhmann’s article on nba.com about the top 10 free agents. Here’s what he had to say about the Bucks and Charlie V., who is #7 on the list:
“Trading Richard Jefferson frees more money for the Bucks to re-sign Villanueva, who had the best season of his career just in time to cash in. He lacks toughness down low, but is a potent, versatile scorer.”
Doesn’t seem to make much sense. What the Buck are they thinking?
I also think the Sixers’ PG will either be Miller, Bibby, or Blake. Each of them have something to offer for the Sixers, which is high IQ basketball, an essential for the Princeton Offense.
Now, so far the only team expressing interest in Andre Miller (other than the Sixers) are the Blazers. If the Sixers cannot afford to keep Miller, then sign and trade him to the Blazers for Steve Blake and Travis Outlaw (or Joel Pryzbilla). If one of those two guys come along with Blake, then I would be very interested in making that deal.
Tell me about the pros and cons of these three PGs?
You just couldn’t resist yourself with the “Buck” joke could you bski?
They must really like Sessions and Alexander.
And actually the Bucks were an alright team last year before Michael Redd got hurt. They were holding onto the 8th seed for a while which wasn’t too much worse than what we were doing. We were probably 5 or 6 games ahead of them in the standings. They also lost Mo Williams in the off season, so potentially, the Bucks could have had an awesome season last year. But it doesn’t look too bright for them next year. Ouch.
No I couldn’t, Guest. Kinda lame I guess, but it was wide open so I took it. Anyway, their decision with Charlie V. is surprising. He started out slowly last year but he really picked it up as the season went on, to the point where he, along with Sessions, was carrying them as one guy after another (Ridnour, Bogut, Redd) went down with injuries. He showed something I would think they would like to keep. Guess not, though.
Just thought I’d let people know:
Hoopshype.com has updated their team and player salaries for the upcoming 09-10 season, through 2013-14.
HOLIDAY ON ICE; STEFANSKI SKATES ON UPSIDE; STUMBLES (onto 8 ppg megastar-in-the-making … the proverbial ‘fell in [his] lap, couldn’t believe he was there’ “high school player of the year” [meaningless in defining pro value] who had his lunch handed to him by ‘Nova buzzsaw defense in college “career” finale); RECOVERS with triple-lutz next-day spin. A cute pick in contrast to an acute pick. Will rue the day of drafting small-shouldered Jrue over seriously more polished and accomplished Lawson.
Is it a case of Miller High Life again? How dromedary like a camel.
Hey guys Charlie Villanueva is a free agent. I would like to see him on our team. He reminds me of a younger Donyell Marshall. What do you guys think?
cwither – Why do you want Villanueva? Where does he play? Why would he come to the Sixers to come off the bench and play for only the mid-level exception after having a career season? We can’t afford to pay him any more than that.
I hear the Cavs are interested. We need to look into bringing in Rasheed Wallace if he would take the mid-level exception. We need a veteran big. One that can shoot the three and pass like Sheed next to Brand in Jordan’s offense would be potent. And is a nice player to have if Sammy acts dumb and has to sit. I would be happy with Sheed/Brand/Thad front court.
I’d take Gortat as the center of the future if you can get him as well.
Dannie, Do you want a veteran with attitude – who can play - but who turns best effort on and off? Sheed’s your man. Not sure if he’d be a great fit and influence for Sixers’ young impressionables and the rest of their roster. Is loaded with skills and savvy, but would he be excited by and, more importantly, committed to a hometown return, including assimilation with a developing, non-championship contending team. Have my doubts on that.
JJG – Just want more talent on the roster, preferable talent that fits what we need. I good passing/shooting veteran big who can defend is exactly what this team needs for this offense and would be a stop gap if Sammy doesn’t work out. Right now I am not comfortable putting Jason Smith or Speights in the starting line up at center.
I don’t think Sheed would come to Philly at all and is not an ideal fit because of his antics. But word is he will be courted by the likes of the Spurs and maybe the Cavs. If he is good enough for them he is good enough for me if he actually wanted to come.
Dannie, Agree. The best of Sheed, who carries an array of talents,
would complement and improve Sixers on court, no doubt. His
instinctual competitiveness, usually strong interior defense, over-top shooting ability, court awareness/poise and passing ability are valuable assets that some contending team will probably come to utilize.
Speights & (to a lesser degree) Smith as post defenders are a snack for strong offensive teams and individuals. The mystery of ‘new coach and Sam’ chemistry is an important riddle.
I know its probably a pipe dream but would love to see if iggy could make the transition to 2. doubtful, i know, but thad is just too good to keep out of the starting line-up and he can only play 3. no clue whats in their plans with regards to that happening, but one thing to keep in mind regarding iggys slow start last year is that he apparently didnt work out at-all last summer. at least not until his deal was done (to prevent pre-contract injury a la willie green), but summer of full workouts with an eye on the 2 could make for much more balanced start from him and the team this fall, while getting a starting line-up spot at the 3.
also, what the heck are we going to do at PG? everything ive read seems to point to the fact that miller doesnt do well with complex offenses. lou isnt an option. sign and trade for miller? j kidd an option (connection with stefanski and his jersey days). who knows. i really think we have some talent with the hope that brand can come back, just no clue how the chips will fall.
follow-up regarding j kidd: thats assuming we can do the impossible and move sam. houston? seems like it might be possible, but darryl morey is apparently the billy beane/moneyball version of nba gms, and Sammy + Statistical excellence + value dont exactly add up.
Brendan – I think the plan at point looks something like this in order of preference (by the Sixers not me):
That’s my best guess at this point.
Even as we speak, Iguodala is looking at Washington Wizard tapes and trying to understand the Princeton Offense.
http://iguodala9.com/wp/?p=403#more-403
If he greatly improves that mid-range shot, he could play the “2″!
interesting. i like iguodala running point forward much more than the lou/willie green options. (if lou could just learn to play within himself and be what he is, he could be a valuable asset — instant offense. he got away from that last year. think he tried to do too much with his new contract.) the portland offer is apparently blake and outlaw, correct? blake is a nice player and could probably bridge the gap until holliday is ready. outlaw is another decent player but he just adds to our log jam of forwards. 3-team trade seems like a better move if we went the portland route. (take blake, send outlaw somewhere for player or cap room with few smaller contracts on last year and possible buyout option?).
other than that, i guess resigning miller is our best bet.
one last thing to keep in mind is as bleak as the sammy situation is right now, he should go from untradable (thanks again billy) to coveted within a year, just as theo ratliff was a few years ago. teams in dire financial straits would love to get their hands on his expiring (12.5M w/ 15% trade kick) 15 M deal next year which could net us a nice player locked into a situation with a team who cant afford him (ie tyson chandler with NO).
thoughts on iguodala transitioning to 2? just killed 20 minutes at lunch and looked at the 2 guards in eddie jordans offenses back in washington and jersey when he was an assistant but essentially running the offense:
NJ
99-00 kerry kittles
00-01 stephen jackson (great find by stefanski) and kendell gill (kittles hurt that season)
01-03 kerry kittles
Washington
03-04 larry hughes/jerry stackhouse (also steve blake rookie year)
04-05 larry hughes
05-06 no true 2; cluster of arenas, a daniels, c atkins
06-08 deshawn stevenson
no real comparisons to iguodala with the exception of steven jackson whos a better scorer than iggy, but comparable in size, style, and defensive ability. also very different PG situations (Kidd in NJ – best PG in the world at the time), Arenas in wash when he wasnt hurt, other than that lots of antonio daniels (blah).
good stuff rob – would love to see that work…best case in my opinion would be iguodala working himself into somewhat legit 2 and holliday fulfilling his potential a year or 2 down the line. thats a huge back court and nightmare matchup for oppostion.
also, seems like arron mckie is going to get the bulk of coaching time this summer with the younger players. anyone know if he has any experience with this princeton-style offense? we know he knows the match-up zone from his temple days, and his sixer days with larry brown. think he runs the transition O with lots of advance passing, advance and replace, etc… designed to find the open man, yes? seems like it correlates to the princeton O but ill be the first to admit that hoops x’s and o’s is not my forte. thoughts?
Michael Curry got canned!
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4297296
Now, Avery Johnson might start thinking about coaching again!
Is it me, or could the Sixers be a bizarro version of the Trailblazers, a team I enjoy watching in the West?
If Iguodala improves the mid-range and gets more game winners, he could be our Brandon Roy with more skills!
Gortat, and why we should push to sign him:
Dannie, you mentioned him as a possible future center, and I have to say, I honestly think this could be an enormously positive move to move to signing him, that no one in the blogosphere or NBA sites have mentioned yet (as far as Sixers & Gortat) that I have seen.
It’s clear all of us are frustrated with Sammy’s lack of inconcsistent play and immature antics as far as his dynamic with coaches and teammates. (Some people call him selfish, I disagree, and see it more as his frustration getting the better of him, and acting without thinking).
He comes off the books in two years, and unless Eddie Jordan all the sudden starts playing Sammy 35 mpg…doubtful, if you look at how EJ has used his big men in Washington (almost always by committee and constant rotation, even when all are healthy)…or Sammy out of no where “gets it” and becomes a 12 pt, 12 rbd, 3 blk center (which he’s capable of, but is clear this is not happening)…we can pretty much lock it in stone that Sammy D will be jettisoned out of town happily by us all once his contract is done. Given that, it is important to find a legitimate big man to replace him, not so much for the win-right-now, but for the long term future, when the core of Iguodala-Thad-Speights (I refuse to include Holiday) are all veterans.
It seems there are two important camps here to note: one, that feels Jason Smith is a 6′11 guy capable of being a starting C, or legitimate backup, and many in the same camp seem to think Speights should also be given time at C, and that this is a successful proposition. It may be what we are GOING to do, given that Brand/Dalembert will obviously need backups, but I am NOT in this camp; Speights defense is not CLOSE to what you’d want as a C, and I really think people are overrating Jason Smith as a player. He’s a big guy that can hit a jumpshot, and seems to not be a pushover. Other then that, I don’t get the big deal. We’ll see this year though.
Given that I am in the “Speights is not a center (absolutely think we have an 18 & 10 PF on our hands though by his 5th year)” and “Jason Smith is a mediocre 8th-9th man at best” camp…this means we have to find a legit big guy to man the post during the latter part of Brand’s contract, and for when D-Bere is gone. Enter: Gortat, and why we should take a long, hard look at him:
1. Consistency. Unlike, say, Jerome James, who miraculously averaged 18 and 10 for Ray-Rashard Seattle team during the playoffs and mistakenly was signed (nice job Isaiah!) to a long term contract…or our own Dalembert who had a MONSTER playoff series against Detroit in 04-05 and we overpaid him for it…Gortat is neither, and has produced consistently all season long, and been very productive, active, and actually brought something to the team in the minutes he has earned off the bench for the Magic.
2. Produced not just effectively, but very well, in filling in for two separate stints when Rashard Lewis and Hedo Turkoglu went down with injury and he had to play the PF spot. Gortat logged a lot of minutes during this time, and put up many double doubles, and double digit rebounding games, along with some nice shot blocking. It should be noted he often did this WITH Dwight Howard in the lineup, showing he is capable of earning numbers with another competant big man next to him.
3. Gortat is tough, and not the classic “European softie”. Unlike Vladamir Radmonovic, Stepania, Tskitishvili, and Bargnani, Gortat is not the soft wuss that is a big man that faces the basket and shoots smooth jumpers, and allows himself to be pushed around. He is firmly in the Andris Biedrins camp; a guy that plays physical and seeks contact, is a very good rebounder, and plays strong on ball defense. A huge reason the Magic were able to be successful this season is plugging Gortat in when Howard needed to sit; it surprised teams they didnt have the huge let down in defense. He also always tries hard and plays with good effort…clearly something we are all sick of Sammy NOT doing.
4. FUNDAMENTALLY SOUND: Gortat has all this down pat. He boxes out on defense, uses his center of gravity well, has solid foundational footwork in the post in place and ready to improve on, holds the ball at his chest level or above (as opposed to 85% of the NBA that brings it down below the waist and has it slapped away). Most importantly, he has excellent hands around the basket…what I like to call the “Carlos Boozer” gene. He doesn’t miss 2-5 foot bunnies. If he gets the ball alone, in traffic, or going against double teams in awkward positions…he makes the ball go in the basket, and has clearly practice the hell out of the Mikan drill. He also is good at properly sealing his defender to give himself wider angles to score in once passed the ball.
5. High bball IQ, unselfish and is a good passer out of the post, and excellent moving without the ball. It was a pleasure to watch the Magic SF’s in Rashard and Turkoglu feed Gortat the ball from the high post, and for him to just finish with ease. He knew exactly where to be on the court when teammate X & Y had the ball. On the flipside, when in the high post, he made a lot of Shaq like passes to the weakside of the floor for a cutting PG or SF, and when on the low block, was surprisingly effective at being able to have the court vision to see where the Magic 3 point shooters were.
If a team is able to land Gortat for a midlevel or slightly higher deal, which would be likely anywhere in the 5 year, $30 – $35 million range, this is going to be AN ABSOLUTE STEAL. Gortat is not a Jerome James or Jim McKelvaine; dude is fundamentally sound and can ball on both sides of the court. He is no all star, but is 100% a future legit starting center, and a good one, in this league.
There is no reason the Sixers should not pursue him given we wouldn’t have to go over the cap in signing him…and yet of course, since Stefanski-DiLeo seems to over-value Jason Smith or dont want to admit they messed up on that pick, I doubt they will even pursue it. He would be such an excellent compliment to a mid post player like Brand at PF that can play good D, and an offensive minded athlete in Speights as our future PF…would just be a great pickup on every level.
(Ugh, Dannie/Pete, promise last time I ask you to do this before I switch to a new operating platform that works better, if you could space out the paragraphs in my last post I’d appreciate it)
How would you guys feel if we got Allen Iverson?
I don’t want him, we don’t need him… but he would sell tickets would he not?
No on Iverson, not because I don’t want him back No because Snider won’t take him back.
And Gortat will go to the Knicks, they want him and he said that he would love to be there. Thank god for that because I don’t want Matt Geiger Lite on our squad.
Guest - I don’t get why people bring up selling tickets as a reason to sign a player. You know what sells tickets? WINNING.
I don’t care if I am the only dude in the Wachovia center as long as they are winning games.
Most importantly, how would Eddie Jordan feel? And Jimmy Lynam? And Mike O’Koren? (I presume McKie wouldn’t mind his old playing mate back in the fold.)
That turn-of-the-century fast dance was thrilling but it sapped some of the organization’s strength too. Though a returned, revitalized AI & Sixers is nice imagery, don’t see it happening for at least 4 reasons: 1) AI is not a system sort or component part in the least 2) AI’s physical capacities have been diminished by time and natural attrition; is no longer a main tent 40-plus minutes glory act 3) Snider, Stefanski, Dileo & Associates are talent needy, not crazy 4) You can’t go home again.
As for would he sell tickets? Only until curiosity is solved. Remember, attendance figures began a steady decline in ‘02 or ‘03 while AI was still central here.
Speculating on the very minute possibilty of his return, his greatest contribution to the present collection of players would be transfusing them with his supreme individual confidence and indomitable will in competition. A sold-out Wachovia Center on opening night re-introducing number 3 would be wild. Now, back to reality … .
JJG maybe we wont have to wait 2 years for Sd/wg’c contract to expire before e make progress. Right now I am day dreamin in my hear, thinking foward 1 year.
What can/will Sammy and Willies expiring contracts be able to fetch?
The Greek, Not sure, but keep the faith. I see Sam’s tide goin’ out (through the insistent sway of a North Jersey moon), but Willie G be risin’ to this year’s occasion.
Dannie, agreed.
What would you guys think of Okur? He is 30 and doesnt play much D but he can shoot and may opt out of his contract. I know we only have the MLE if we dont re-sign Miller, but who is going to give him more than that anyway.
Dannie, I wasn’t implying that selling tickets is a reason to sign him, I was just wondering what you guys would think… If it would create some excitement for the duration of the season. But I agree with you and everyone else… he would sell tickets for a little while, until everyone realizes he isn’t half the player he used to be.
I don’t know about Okur though. I like his ability to stretch the floor. And that would probably help Brand a lot having most of the paint to work in. He does suck at defense from what I can tell. Does anyone know if he played the 5 for Utah last year? Because if he can’t play the 5 than I’m not sure I would want him.
About our problem at C, you’re preaching to a member of the choir, Dave T., as I also think that neither Speights nor Smith is our answer. Speights could possibly grow into it over several years, but now is not the time to put him there. Smith will most likely be nothing more than a serviceable backup, as you stated.
Were Smith healthy this past season, I believe he would have demostrated that he is not a starting caliber center during the extra playing time he most likely would have gotten due to our injury problems and Dalembert’s ineffectiveness. As it stands, Smith is still a question mark and I’m guessing the Sixers will give it at least this year to see how/if he’s progressing/developing into anything.
I wish that the Sixers would go get Gortat, but I get the feeling that instead they will wait to see how much Speights and Smith develop this year rather than bringing in and committing to someone from the outside before having a better idea of what they’ve got in-house.
I have good news: Andre Iguodala and Willie Green are attending Mark Price’s Shooting Class! If what we saw from Thad worked, then it will be a good sign for those two.
Real Rob: I will say this about Mr. Willie Green. If he ever learned to CONSISTENTLY knock down the 3 point shot…not at a steller clip, but even to raise it to around the 35% mark, he would be a very valuable asset to have off the bench given his defense and athletic slashing abilities.
Bski: Well said about the Gortat thing…I agree that the Sixers are going to want to “see what they have with a healthy J Smith for a year” before making any decisions. I’m going to just wait for the collective kick in the head when Sixers brass realize, probably all right around the same time:
-Jason Smith is an 8th man at the very best, and a slightly better and more in shape incarnation of Brian Cook.
-They overpaid Lou Williams.
-Jrue Holiday is not an NBA pg.
Ouch. Good thing Thad and Speights are the real deal (imo), and two players I fully expect to continue to improve.
DaveT., in the old N.B.A. I would agree with you but M.Bonner gets 25 min. a night on a very good Spurs team. If Jason gets to the 10 pt.,6 reb., 1 bl. level he can be part of a center tandem as long as our 4 is a good rebounder,and not Thad. This year is Lou!s make or break year, in my opinion and if we get Blake I would like to see him reupped as our backup p.g./backup s.g. . because of his high i.q. level,outside shot and ass./turn..
My free agent predictions;
R.Artest-Lakers
Milsap and Odom-Detroit
Gortat-New York
D.Lee-Memphis
C.Villanueve-Cleveland
J.Kidd-Dallas
R.Wallace-S. Antonio
Turkaglu-Portland
A.Miller-Phila.
B.Gordon-Chicago
M.Bibby-Atlanta
Z.Pachulia-Okl.City
R.Sessions-Milwaukee
Please please please. If you are going to sign Miller, no more than 2 years, please.
Greek: Did you read the rumor of Dalembert (plus filler) for McGrady and his expiring contract?
No I haven’t Morty, but I will look it up asap!
Rob, where did you read that about Iggy and Willie going to Price’s shooting clinic?
Fellas let’s take it easy on Jason Smith, remember that he is coming off of a major injury. He wasn’t projected to be Bill Walton pre injury, lets just hope that he is a solid NBA player. Personally I feel that once he gets healthy that he is certainly good enough to be a role player on a great team, and that suits our team just fine.
The kid is smart, passionate, hustles all the time, runs hard, and has a killer J. What was missing from his rookie season was strength and a back to basket game. I think he got a lot strong coming into last season before he went down, and being that he spends his summers playing hoops unlike Sammy who is making and flying paper airplanes as we speak. It wouldn’t surprise me if he came back with some sort of low post game.
And from reading all the Sixer talk on all the blogs we are all in agreement on not giving miller more then 2 years. Maybe Morty adding the words please are enough to swat Stefanski not mess this up.