Update: After the postponement of Game 3, J.A. Happ will now get the start
I’m as big a supporter of Charlie Manuel as anyone, but his decision to start Pedro Martinez in a critical Game 3, over Joe Blanton and JA Happ, doesn’t make one bit of sense to me.
First of all, if Saturday’s game is played, it’s going to be below freezing and very, very hard for the pitchers to get loose and warmed up. We’ve seen Pedro struggle to get loose and warmed up in 80 degree weather (batters have a 1.095 OPS against him in the first inning this year), let alone the freakin’ arctic.
Second of all, Pedro has pitched a grand total of 7 innings (while giving up 6 runs) since September 13th. He’s not exactly in rhythm right now.
Finally, we have (or had, before Charlie decided they were mop-up bullpen guys), our 2 most reliable and consistent starters ready to go for Game 3. Blanton gave us 21 quality starts this year, while Happ gave us 14. You have to think we will get some runs off of Hammel, and we really just need a pitcher that will hold the Rockies to 3 runs or so. Pitching Pedro has a much higher probability of disaster.
Maybe they think Pedro can capture some of his previous October magic, or that simply his presence will intimidate some of the younger Rockies hitters, but in this case, I think the risk far outweighs the reward. I really, really hope I’m wrong, but I don’t support this one bit.
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I don’t like it either, Pete. You just knew it was going to come to this, didn’t you? Reading all the quotes from Charlie about Pedro over the last couple days———-”He’s available to pitch, and definitely he’s in the mix to be one of our starters in this series,” and “He does his side work, and he throws in the bullpen. He’s ready. He knows what he’s doing…I’d say he is capable of going out there and throwing definitely 90 to 100 pitches.”———-coupled with the fact that, unlike both Happ and Blanton, Pedro was on the bench instead of out in the bullpen, you just knew it was going to be Pedro getting the game 3 start. I think Charlie and Pedro pretty much knew it, too.
I really want to give Charlie the benefit of the doubt for yesterday. It is the playoffs and you want to do all you can to win every game. After the way our bullpen was last year, it’s disheartening to hear him say, “I was making moves out there that if I could have picked some other things to do, I would probably did it”.
Since he has little confidence in some of the relievers, he needs arms he trusts out there and Blanton is a better option than Durbin (and Myers, and Lidge for that matter), while Happ is better option than Escalona (and an injured Eyre). I get it. It’s just that trying to fix that by moving both your 2nd and 3rd best starters to the bullpen creates holes in the rotation that need to be filled now. Robbing Peter to pay Paul is a tough way to go and usually can’t be sustained for very long (although we’ve got to get through the NLDS first before we worry about what comes next).
He surely knew that he could end up having to go down this road, but he obviously felt that this was the best way to play it. I keep telling myself to trust him, that he knows his team, but Charlie really seems to have managed himself into a tough spot and things could end up unraveling and getting away from us pretty quickly now.
Of course, Pedro could give us a very good start, we could win game 3, get right back on track, and have either Happ or Blanton lined up and ready to go in game 4. Tough for me to see that at this point though.
Todd Zolecki has some quotes from Manuel on the decision to give Pedro the start:
“First of all, we think he’s very healthy,” Charlie Manuel said. “The first thing you’re going to ask me is about the weather. He has pitched in cold weather. He pitched in Boston and also pitched a playoff game against us when I was in Cleveland where he came in with a bad arm. He went about five or six innings in a playoff game, and it was cold that night.
“He’s says he’s ready and up for it.”
“I feel like Pedro is capable of going anywhere from 85 to 100 pitches,” Manuel said. “And I think he can get you into the sixth or seventh inning if his command is good. … Pedro is in very good shape, a lot better shape than last year. He’s throwing quite a bit better. He keeps himself ready to go. He throws a lot on the side, and he’s ready to pitch.”
Charlie must be right on this one.
bski: you’re right about robbing Peter to pay Paul. it didnt pay off and costs him now. I’m sure its cos Happ can’t go that Pedro is starting. Look you’re a manager in the NLDS, your team has a chance to go 2-0 but you have to keep the game close. Charlie is VERY old fashioned and is more worried about the NOW than the future. ANYTHING he can do to win NOW. thats why he used ‘em both cos till the last pitch it was a very winnable game. Imagine if we were up 2-0, pedro wouldnt be such a bother after all.
You know what; I agree with him too. I’d take that chance if i were him. It almost worked out too.
I really don’t get the belly aching about Manuel’s using Blanton and Happ yesterday. He was trying to take a 2-0 lead in a best of 5 series – I don’t blame him at all. Obviously, in retrospect, he had Pedro lined up for Game 3. Happ will be ready to start game 4, and Manuel must feel Blanton will be more effective out of the pen than Pedro, which is why Blanton is the odd man out of the rotation.
old guy, cold weather. gripping the baseball. brrrr gives me the chills.
don’t want him to sit for too long between innings. if the Phils have a long inning and make it rain on Hammel, might actually be bad for us too.
Pete: remember that thing bout putting the baseballs in a humidifier or sumthin just so they would stop flying outta the ball park in Coors Field? Guaranteed that the mile-high phenomenom makes it a pitchers nightmare, but is that negated with cold weather?
Morty,
In that Todd Zolecki post to which I provided a link, there is a quote from Manuel. He said that Blanton is a horse, so, yeah, it sure seems like Manuel planned on keeping him in the pen all along (and in using him a lot). It also seems apparent that if he had to use Happ in either of the first two games, Manuel planned on starting Pedro in game 3 and then using Happ in game 4 like you said. We’ll see.
It’s not so much that Pedro is getting a start, it’s when he’s getting it that is unsettling to me. If we were up 2-0 I’d be of a different opinion, but as it stands it’s a pivotal game and he’s a big question mark. Problem is, he’s the best option we’ve got. Nothing for us to do now but hope he does what we brought him here to do and he pitches us to a 2-1 series lead.
jkay,
I don’t blame Charlie for using both Blanton and Happ in game 2. I really don’t. It’s just a shame that it is necessary to have both of them in the bullpen in the first place.
I know every team has holes, but our bullpen has been a major issue for pretty much the entire season. It wasn’t some bolt from the blue that got us scrambling for cover at the last minute. No, with the combination of injuries and ineffectiveness we’ve had, you could see this coming down the tracks for miles. Granted that a lot of it was unexpected, but it only reinforces that in no way could we count on many of our relievers to be healthy and effective at this point. Now we’ve got what we’ve got and it looks like it has a good chance of being our undoing.
Pete, Argument of Arctic weather = ineffective Martinez and, therefore, a poor managerial choice to start Game 3 is invalid as it, through omission of mention, implies a neutral value to inclement climate effect on options Blanton or Happ. On last check, neither of the younger chuckers are Eskimos; both are prone to experience trouble with baseball grip and body tightness too as a result of expected frigid weather (though Blanton’s chin should remain warm as a result of his trusty beaver coat).
“Pitching Pedro has a much higher probability of disaster” … bold claim, scant support. I’m happy Charlie chose the daring Dominican maestro to conduct tonight; he’s bound to face some Colorado Rockies’ dissonance; nothing new to him. And if crucial pitches don’t dance and he’s forced to bow out, Phillies’ pen has enough wands, when including Blanton & Happ, to finish the score. I have more doubt regarding the offense’s output tonight, along with Choo Choo Charlie’s engineering.
Just found this in today’s Daily News:
“I want you to get this, too, about our pitching: We have our pitching set up. I always intended to pitch Blanton and Happ,” Manuel said. “But at the same time, I wanted the bridge in the front and the back of our bullpen. If we had Romero, it would be really easy. But we don’t have him. So, therefore, Blanton became the horse in our bullpen. Although every game that comes up I want to start him, I still think about the seventh, and I think about the bridge we’ve got in our back end to hold the game. That’s kind of what we anticipated. But at the same time, in the back of my mind, if things work out right, and how we use them, both of them were going to pitch a game. But this five-game series is much different than a seven-game. Even the other day, when we were up one [in the series], that game became huge.”
Pretty much lays bare Charlie’s mindset and confirms what we’ve been talking about here.
As much as I’d love to see a storybook, turn-back-the-clock, add-to-the-legend playoff game to remember from Pedro tonight, I’d be a lot more comfortable with a postponement today, Happ tomorrow, and Lee in game 4, with Hamels (ok, not quite as comfortable with this) in reserve for a game 5 at home if necessary.
doesn’t matter – game is postponed.
bski, None of the projected starters of your postponement fantasy
carry the wisdom, assortment of pitches or heart of Pedro (409 GS, 46 CG). He has 6 career playoff wins, the other 3 combined: 5. And your replacement choice of Happ runs counter to history as his playoff experience is all of 3 innings (including 5 hits allowed, 2 walks issued and 1 bruised knee). Martinez modernly turned in a 5-1, 3.63 2009 regular season before a largely skeptical Philly audience. Turn-back-the-clock? Doesn’t apply. Give-him-the-ball on merit does.
Check that: postponement reality. Thanks, Pete. I do love Pedro. An original. And a great (and Manager Charlie knows it).
Watching the 1995 ALDS between the Red Sox and Indians. Just watched Plunk stike out Matt Stairs with high heat.
Damn, those pants were really tight back in the day. And Plunk’s galsses are huge. They’re like accountant glasses.
Yep, as jjg pointed out, the postponement is now a reality.
And, further proving that MLB is Network TV’s bitch, Sunday’s game will go on at 10:07 pm.
You’d think that anyone with an iota of common sense might want to schedule a game in Colorado during the daytime when conditions are merely “freaking cold” as opposed to “even the Polar Bears don’t want to come out and play.”
Either way, I still like our chances in this series. GO PHILLIES! (Just drink some hot chocolate first.)
This postponement is a killer for us going into the LCS. If the Dodgers win tonight they get 4 full days off before starting the LCS in the 15th.
If the Phills have to take this to 5 games our rotation is going to be a mess.
Hamels in LDS game five? he wouldn’t be able to go until game 3 of the LCS??
Ugh… The Rockies should have to play their home games in Vegas.
We’ll worry about the LCS when we get there. It’s not like the Dodgers have awesome pitchers they are lining up for games 1 and 2. Randy Wolf was their game 1 starter and Vicente freakin’ Padilla is pitching today.
Guess we won’t find out about Pedro, as J.A. Happ will now start Game 3.
game ppd: now tell me you’re gonna start Happ, Charlie ?
well not sure how this changes things, its still gonna be dark
and cold.
MLB is proving that not only are they idiots, they are willing to admit to their mistakes. a good thing. now if they could eat some more humble pie to quell their appetite to screw us over.
Pete: you’re kidding right? Charlie Manuel can’t do that. That would be humiliating to Pedro.
“Uhh…… yeah…. I think I changed my mind, you can sit.”
wow its true. speechless but happy I am.
Charlie’s a doofus. I know he’s a baseball lifer, knows the game, is liked by his players, but I’m gettin’ tired of listenin’ to his tortured logic and language. He blows good bubbles, however … maybe one will carry him back to West Virginny.
For his part, Pedro is taking it well:
“It’s the most reasonable thing to do,” Martinez said this afternoon in the lobby of the team’s hotel. “I haven’t thrown in 10 days. Difficult weather. Happ has been in there. He has a better feel for the ball. I’m just hoping I get an opportunity to pitch a couple innings before they use me.” (emphasis mine)
Glad to hear Pedro say this. Getting him at least a couple innings of relief before he makes a start is the smart way to proceed.
Goodness gracious, Pedro’s gracious.
Since Happ wrote his term papers at Northwestern, guess he knows a little about combating snow and cold temperatures. Trouble is, MLA manuals are not permitted on the mound, even in the case of playoffs freshmen. He’s on his own at Coors Field presenting to one of the hottest teams in baseball. Will the lefthanded lad – with chattering teeth - properly format, punctuate and attribute?
From today’s Daily News (in Pedro’s own words):
“I’ve done enough throwing,” Martinez said. “I think the softball that I have is about to run away from me, because I’ve been keeping my hands on that softball too much for too long. But I have been trying to get as much of a feel for the ball as I can.
“It’s hard, because it doesn’t matter how much you throw in the bullpen, how much you practice. The intensity of the game and the quality that those hitters put up against you is totally different. But I have been trying to stay sharp. I would have loved to have pitched a little bit in between, but that’s not the case right now. I just have to go and do whatever I can at the time I have.”
“We don’t really know,” Martinez said when asked how deep into the game he can pitch. “But I feel really good physically. I’m looking forward to going out there. Hopefully get a normal start, use my experience to my advantage and try not to waste too much energy and too many pitches. Hopefully, I’ll have the feeling for the ball and hopefully be able to give my team what they expect, which is a quality outing and win.”
These are not my suppositions, as none other than Pedro himself has admitted that he does not have the feel for the ball that he’d like to, that he has not faced live batters under game conditions (which he admits is detrimental), and that he is unsure of what he would be able to give the team in a start right now.
Now that it is no longer a necessity, it sounds to me like both he and Charlie Manuel are being very prudent about not having him make a start until both of them are more sure of what he can give the team, or at least until he is a bit better prepared for the task.
Only two things separate Pedro from his staff mates at this time: intelligence and forthrightness. Who among starters IS sure of what they will be able to provide, especially under playoff pressure in poor weather conditions?
One last update for this evening. Charlie Manuel has confirmed that Lee will pitch game 4 and it will be either Hamels or Blanton for game 5, with Pedro pitching out of the pen to get some work. Here are some direct quotes:
“I told J.A. yesterday that he was going to pitch Sunday, and when the game got called today, I think, if I’m not mistaken, it’s been about 10 or 11 days since Pedro Martinez pitched in a game,” Manuel said. ”And also the weather had something to do with it. And another thing that comes into play is the fact that Cliff Lee is on his regular rest. And we like left hand pitchers against Colorado. And I think that gives us the strongest way to go about it.
And also from here on out, the next couple of days Pedro will work out of the bullpen.”
Game 5: “That’s on Hamels’ regular day, and also it depends on how much Blanton would get in the game and also Pedro,” Manuel said. “But I like left hand pitchers against this team. And I think that we definitely match up good that way.”
BTW, The Dodgers are in the NLCS after sweeping the Cardinals today with a 5-1 win. Vicente Padilla threw 97 pitches, 69 of which were strikes, over 7 innings, allowing only 4 hits, 1 walk, and no runs while striking out 4. How about that? (nod to Vin Scully)
bski: ex-Phillie pitchers Padilla and Wolf come home for October. can you say NLCS deja-vu?
HEY now that the freaking Cardinals and media celeb/MLB’s equivalent of Brangelina; Albert Pujols himself, are gone, can we get that 4-7pm slot and play in some decent weather.
push back the freaking yankees if u have to. its not like we dont already know whats gonna happen in a series with a mentally and physically spent Twins club.
Forecast for tonight in Denver: “Patchy Fog,” 32 degrees.
A.J. Foyt, B.J. Surhoff, D.J. Dozier, J.J. Daigneault, O.J. Simpson, M.L. Carr, I.M. Hipp, C.C. Sabathia, D.L. Washington, J.D. Smith, J.A. Happ … passing the time until 10:07.
… J.D. Drew, J.P. Parise, L.C. Greenwood …
random comment: am so proud of the Angels right now, even if they don’t win they at least made a statement. its tough to lose that much to one team. Boston is up but still Fenway is awfully quiet….I dunno…..
BJ Upton, JT O’Sullivan, JR Reed, AC Slater, DL Hughley…
Hey if were lucky the Angels and Yanks will sweep today and the Phills can play at something resembling a reasonable start time.
Although MLB will probably still start the game at 11:38 a.m. or something.
Something that is inexplicably retarded. Red Sox/Angels game over at rougly 3:30. No baseball whatsoever from 3:30 to 7:07 pm – Yankess/Twins. then a game at 10:07 – Phillies/Rockies. What the hell can’t the Phillies play at 3:07?? This is a joke!