Note: Chart is clearer in Firefox or Google Crome. If you only have IE, click on the linked picture.
With the Phillies roster more or less set, I wanted to look at how the team has transformed over the years and compare this squad to the recent ones. I put together this chart of the opening day rosters for the team since 2004. The only players that will be on the 2009 roster from that one are Jimmy Rollins, Ryan Madson and Brett Myers. I figured this would provoke some interesting discussion about past players and how the team is looking for 2009. One thing to keep in mind: Opening Day rosters always look better than the year prior. You always assume so-and-so must be better than the guy in his place last year. In the off-season, optimism reigns supreme, World Champions or not…
Click here to enlarge (or clear up) image
Loading ...
{ 19 comments… read them below or add one }
Lieberthal: Valley Boy with shin guards.
Perez: loved whipped-cream pies.
Millwood & Lieber: poopy pants.
Wagner: stirred nest with vinegar.
Worrell: departed mid-year for therapist couch.
Cormier: French-Canadian left winger.
Michaels: good right jab.
Geary: Lee Harvey Oswald.
Thome: “Aw, shucks.”
Bell: often injured or injurious
This brings back some not-so-great memories of disappointing seasons. Hands down this team was better in 2008 than any prior year. This speaks very highly for our farm system at the time for getting these talented youngsters up to play at the major league level, as well as Gillicks ability to make subtle moves that have a greater impact than seen on the onset.
As discussed before, the 2009 roster is the best of the bunch and barring any major injuries, this team should compete for another championship given the talent on this roster.
I’m marveling over what we accomplished with the 2008 rotation. Kendrick and Eaton imploded, Myers brainfarted the first half of the season away… and we still wound up with a world championship. You could say that out of the original starting 5, only 2 and a 1/2 of it was effective.
So first of all we have to tip our hat to Myers for getting himself straightened and being en fuego the entire second half (not to mention his bat following suit in the playoffs LOL).
And then we have to credit Pat Gillick for saving the season by acquiring Blanton amidst all the “who the hell is he?” protests. Hey, I admit it — I wanted Sabathia. But Blanton held his own and Gillick sure looks like a genius now.
Also have to give props to Victorino. I know getting rid of Abreu was a form of addition by subtraction all in itself. But there’s also the correlation that once Victorino became a regular, the Phils were a different team. Kudos to Victorino for being a spark plug. Not just in 2007 but especially in 2008 when a lot of us thought we’d be greatly affected by the loss of Rowand’s spark.
Awesome chart, Pete. Many thanks!
good call on Victorino. The biggest change I see (besides the obvious transfer of power from Thome, Burrell, Abreu to Rollins, Utley, Howard) is the bullpens.
Every year we had maybe 2 known quantities in the bullpen and a handful of unknowns and question marks.
Thanks for the stroll down (recent) memory lane, Pete. Aside from the fact that I have either deliberately repressed a lot of those memories or pretended that many of them never happened in the first place, it’s interesting to sift back through the previous incarnations of our beloved Phillies.
The marked improvement in the bullpen jumped out at me too. I started thinking about “Rat” Wagner. When we got him, I thought we would be getting what we just got from Lidge.
I think comparing the two is instructive. Wagner throws the same two pitches, fastball and slider. Wagner actually throws both pitches harder than Lidge does now, yet Lidge is much more successful. I think this proves that the old cliche, ‘you can’t throw hard enough to get it by a major league hitter’, is absolutely correct.
I don’t think Wagner has/had the level of control that Lidge has now, specifically of the slider, and that is the reason Lidge is more successful. Wagner is, and always has been, vulnerable, especially to the long ball because, although his slider is wicked, it is usually out of the strike zone. If a hitter can recognize that a slider is coming, which is not easy to do, he can lay off of it, take it for a ball, and force Wagner to throw the fastball, which is not easy to hit either but it’s a lot more hittable than his slider.
As I have said several times this past season, I really believe that the knee surgery was a blessing in disguise for Lidge. He said himself that because of the surgery, he did not have the same velocity. By extension, since he did not have the same velocity, he specifically worked on his control. When you think about it, the only times Lidge really struggled were when his slider was really biting and diving in the dirt. Then the same thing would happen to him. Hitters would sit on his fastball and hit it. When he was able to consistently throw the slider for a strike, he was unhittable.
A perfect example of sacrificing a few mph off a pitch, or pitches, in order to gain better control, thereby achieving greater success.
Is it April yet??? All this Phillies talk has me salavating at the mouth to see what our boys can do. It will be a fun season, and with the pressure of winning a championship is gone, maybe the fans will be a little more foregiving to the players. Yeah right.
to bring the Carrasco discussion over here because I never addressed it.
I think the evaluation that had him inbetween Kyle Lohse and Freddy Garcia was about right (the good versions of those two pitchers, by the way).
I think he is a very solid #2, who is capable of having 15-18 win, 3.50 ERA, 180-200 K seasons.
Some scouts don’t go gaga unless they see 20-win, 2.50 ERA, 250 K potential. Carrasco does not have that (right now at least). But he is a very good prospect and still quite young.
i’m still a big Tomas Perez fan… that guy loved playing baseball.
BSKI: right on bout Wagner, his new delivery this year with the Mets where he opened his delivery with his arms and whole body flying out to up his velocity significantly, just made it easier for him to get injured. there’s a reason why Jamie Moyer still has success in the league. i like the fact that Lidge keeps it simple. he just does the same stuff over and over. many ppl were wondering why in the 2nd half he was having long innings. i think its was cos ppl began passing on his slider, which is insane but sensible considering how often you miss when you swing at it. lidge just kept throwing the same slider until SOMEONE bit on it, he never gave in. thats why he was perfect, he never gave in. its arrogance to believe u can just throw heat and everyone’s gonna whiff. heck thats why ryan howard is feared cos like all major leaguers he LIVES for the fastball. ask broxton how he feels bout jamming 101mph at matt stairs. well nothing we already didnt know but good post.
Pete Carrasco - a solid #2? The scout I quoted said “a #4 w/flashes of better” (one opinion, true). How did you reach your projection? Ever seen him? Hasn’t thrown a big league pitch yet. Could you be wearing a hopeful fan’s rose-colored glasses?
jjg -
basing my assessment on a bunch of things. but I’ve read scouts saying everything from what you said, to a borderline #1. I’m not going to find/remember everything I’ve read of him, but here’s where I was coming from.
- he’s got better stuff than a #4 would have with a plus fastball (92-94) and plus changeup.
- MLB.com just ranked him as the 28th best prospect in all of baseball, calling him a “top-of-the-rotation right-hander, settling in behind Cole Hamels.”
- from baseball prospectus phillies top prospects article last year… “Opinions vary on Carrasco. Most believe he’ll at least be a good No. 3 starter, and some think he’ll be more than that.” Their 2009 list for the Phils should be out in the next couple days, so we will see if their opinoin has changed.
- from a Jayson Stark article around the trade deadline last year. A scout said this, not Stark…. “Why is this guy still in Double-A? He’s a big-time arm with quality stuff who could eventually be a top-of-the-rotation guy. I don’t see them trading him. I really don’t.”
- I remember reading one scout call him the best pitcher at the Futures Game in 2008.
obviously not all the positives I’ve read, but all I could find just now.
to be clear…..his CEILING is a solid #2 with the #’s I listed above. Right now, he’s not ready for the majors. But, the kid is only 21.
Pete He’s been hyped liked a #1B (which may be the fault of reaching writers more than Phils). I’ll be satisfied if he turns out to be a solid #3 based on what I’ve read and Phils’ history with their ballyhooed minor league pitchers. (Gavin Floyd, Adam Eaton, Carlton Loewer, Wayne Gomes, Tyler Green, Pat Combs, Brad Brink … all 1st rounders, all pretty much busts in our city.)
Fastball 88-94 but “lacks movement/relatively straight, not a swing-and-miss pitch.” Slider “inconsistent.” Change, “bread and butter.” Mechanics “can be problematic.” Again, it’s Kiley McDaniel’s (”Saberscouting”) observations and formed opinions. Another
evaluator, Alex Eisenberg of baseball-intellect.com, “wasn’t impressed by Carrasco during Futures,” liking 3 others over him while admitting Carlos has a lot to work with. Sounds like he’s still a work in progress.
I don’t get the sense that he’s gonna ever gonna be dominant.
Thanks for your reply. Enjoyed reading basis points.
jjg-
Well, well, well. Just when you think you know what to expect from the hated Mets. Check out what Omar Minaya had to say about the Phils in today’s NY Daily News.
bski…. Finally someone up in New York has come back to reality and recognized the Phils for what they are, A BETTER TEAM. He is correct in that your team on paper doesn’t mean much, its what you do on the field and winning games obviously that is gonna get you that ring. Respectful comment made by him and I appreciate that.
keith law hates me…
Pete (Philly): I know you hated the Ibanez signing. But here’s the other side of the coin. Ibanez hit 100 points highers with RISP than Burrell in the last 3 years, puts more balls in play, strikes out less, plays horrendous (but still better) defense than Burrell, and has hit over .300 against the only lefty in the NL (Johan) worth mentioning. He’s older, sure, but has shown his work ethic will make that less of an issue. He’s not loads better than Burrell, but I don’t think it was quite as bad as you made it sound.
Keith Law: (1:55 PM ET ) That’s rationalization. BARISP is a skill? No, it’s not. Strikes out less and puts more balls in play – those are one point, and when you’re as slow as a sack of hair, striking out less isn’t necessarily a good thing. And I’m not so sure Ibanez is a better defender than Burrell. Finally, you omitted the entire draft pick problem – no arb to Burrell plus losing a pick for Ibanez = bad pick management.
Pete… I gotta agree with you on this one. On paper Ibanez is an upgrade to Burrell and we are trying to win NOW so the draft pick thing is not valid in my opinion. Sure draft picks are great but they won’t help you win a championship in 2009.
I know Amaro “made the final call” on Ibanez, but he certainly didn’t make it alone. I just get the feeling that, even though I know Gillick had a say, this was Looper’s call. Would we have signed Ibanez if we had not just hired Looper? I suppose it’s possible, but I don’t know. I just think it is more than coincidental, especially after reading Burrell’s comments about not really being contacted and such. A 3-year contract for a soon-to-be 37-year old doesn’t happen without some major lobbying on his behalf, IMO, so Looper’s neck is on the line with me for this one.
Isn’t Park #5 and Happ in the pen?