Well, I’ve had 2 fantasy football drafts today, and I’ve been busy with NBA and NFL preview stuff, so the Nats series thread got left until now and is going to be short…
This is a time that teams go through where there isn’t really any analysis that is going to find the secret of what is wrong. These guys just need to play better. They need to hit with RISP, they need to manufacture more runs, they need to pitch better at the end of games. This happens during 162 game seasons, and it’s better to happen now than October. But to get to October, they still need to turn it around.
This will just serve as a place to talk about the series and whatever is on your mind with the Phils…
Strap yourselves in boys. Brad Lidge (with Charlie Manuel hesitatingly in his corner) is coming in for the 9th with the Phils holding a 5-3 lead (although Madson is warming in the bullpen).
Yikes! Single-ground out-HBP, runners on first and second with 1 out. It’s gotta be the finger, right?
Uh-huh, wild pitch and both runners advance. Runners on 2nd and 3rd, 1 out, and looking sharp as usual. Yep, a walk to load the bases, Zimmerman coming to the plate, and Lidge’s night is done. Thanks for stopping by.
Now Madson, who has missed a few games, comes into a real mess.
well – hopefully that was FINALLY the last straw for Charlie…
97 on the black, 97 on the black, change-up in the dirt. That was impressive by Madson.
96 on the black, 96 on the black, change-up on the corner. 6 pitches, 2 outs – it’s amazing he hasn’t been able to close.
Thank you, Ryan Madson. Comes in throwing darts (97mph). 6 pitches, 6 strikes, dispatching Zimmerman and Dunn, recording 2 quick outs, cleaning up Lidge’s mess, and earning a tough save.
Yeah, Pete. Funny that Manuel reiterates his support for Lidge only to see him blow up again just a few hours later. Charlie has got to be at the end of the line with him now.
bski: “tough” save is understating it — bases loaded, tying run in scoring position, and oppositions 3-4 hitters coming up. Madson’s fastball was as good as it’s been all year (97 with movement); I think the lay-off did him good.
Pete: if you think about it, Madson’s last blown save was essentially one (terribly) bad pitch in an otherwise decent outing. It wasn’t at all like Lidge’s typical blown save, with runners all over the place, pitches who-knows-where, and multiple hard-hit balls. So in true 9th inning save situations this year, Madson has saved 5, blown 3 (one of which the Phils came back to win). I still say he hasn’t truly been given a chance to close and hasn’t shown that he can’t.
That said, I would have no problem if Manuel went to Myers (who also looked good tonight).
Should be a very interesting postgame press conference. Since I don’t get Comcast Sportsnet, I’ll have to wait until the morning to read what Manuel has to say about the situation now, as keeping Lidge as the closer is indefensible at this point.
This team really is the Fightin’ Phils. This team has been banged up every which way and a lot of them are the walking wounded, including Lidge. But great job Charlie for putting Madison in that tight rope. Obviously, Lidge needs rest and less pressure (for now) until October.
Also, it is great to have Ibanez getting back in a grooove. Plus, Pedro should be in our playoff rotation!
bski, thank you for that bullpen update over in the previous That’s Enough, Charlie thread. I’ve been out of the loop, swamped at work lately so that was all new information for me. My fingers are crossed that Happ will be okay. Hate to hear the word “oblique” on an injury report.
Pete, in spite of tonight’s exciting win I’m not really breathing a sigh of relief just yet. The reason for that is the Phillies aren’t going to hit five home runs tomorrow. Can’t do that every day so I’d feel better if they worked out the kinks for all the little things that can be done every day, such as moving runners over and manufacturing runs.
On the bright side, five things: The movement on Pedro’s pitches was fun to watch. Ibanez showed he still has some pop. Myers is rounding into form (shades of 2007?). Madson was en fuego. And Charlie finally showed he does have a limit to his patience. He did what he had to tonight and gave the “W” priority.
Let’s hope this is the start of the annual end-of-the-season hot streak.
Pete, has your position on the future of Jayson Werth changed? I mean, I don’t think anybody saw 32 home runs in this guy and he wears down pitchers so well…its important to have a guy like that steady in this lineup, especially a righty.
Maybe he would be good to keep around for a few more years…
No problem, Drolz.
I’m with you on the oblique strains. Not good news at all. Ruiz had the problem earlier this year, Condrey has been dealing with his for almost two months, and now Happ goes down with it (am I missing anyone?). I mean, is it contagious like the flu or what? It’s reminding me of the outbreak of “sports hernias” that hit the NFL a couple years ago when McNabb was afflicted with one.
Drolz -
stu-
depends on what the return on Werth could. I mean, if he goes for 40 HR and 100 RBI we could get a pretty return, right? I doubt his value would ever be higher.
Michael Taylor is not going to go for 40 HR and 100 RBI, but he might do 25 HR and 90 RBI while hitting for a higher average and a lot less K’s, which is kind of what we need.
Meanwhile, if you can get an elite 3B prospect and a decent pitching prospect, I think I would do it.
Don’t get me wrong, I love Werth – but I might rather have Taylor and a 3B of the future in 2011 than Werth and…
Well it’s about darn time. By removing Lidge, Charlie has finally taken the first step toward installing a new closer. Not only that, he has also openly stated for the record that winning games is his top priority, meaning his loyalty to Lidge is now a secondary concern. Can’t see Lidge getting more than a couple chances, maybe only one if it’s a repeat of last night, before Charlie makes a change.
What happens next will be interesting. Charlie said again that he doesn’t see Lidge as a 7th or 8th inning guy, so when does he plan on using him? I’m taking Charlie’s statement to mean that Lidge is not a 7th or 8th inning guy on a permanent basis (i.e. the next two years of his contract with us). Gotta figure that that is exactly when he will use Lidge, at least at first anyway, don’t you? I doubt that Lidge will get bumped to mop up duty immediately. Not saying he won’t pitch himself there though, as who knows how he will respond to being removed as closer.
Anybody think Lidge might actually pitch himself off the playoff roster over these last few weeks? Sounds absurd I know, but at what point of any playoff game can you use the guy who started the 9th last night?
interesting tidbit from Todd Z., as the Phillies became the 12th team in history with 4 30 HR hitters… the others…
Here are the other 11 teams to accomplish that feat:
• 2006 White Sox: Joe Crede, Jermaine Dye, Paul Konerko, Jim Thome.
• 2004 Cubs: Moises Alou, Derrek Lee, Aramis Ramirez, Sammy Sosa.
• 2000 Angels: Garret Anderson, Troy Glaus, Tim Salmon, Mo Vaughn.
• 2000 Blue Jays: Tony Batista, Jose Cruz Jr., Carlos Delgado, Brad Fullmer.
• 1999 Rockies: Dante Bichette, Vinny Castilla, Todd Helton, Larry Walker.
• 1998 Braves: Andres Galarraga, Andruw Jones, Chipper Jones, Javy Lopez.
• 1997 Rockies: Ellis Burks, Castilla, Galarraga, Walker.
• 1997 Dodgers: Eric Karros, Raul Mondesi, Mike Piazza, Todd Zeile.
• 1996 Rockies: Bichette, Burks, Castilla, Galarraga.
• 1995 Rockies: Bichette, Castialla, Galarraga, Walker.
• 1977 Dodgers: Dusty Baker, Ron Cey, Steve Garvey, Reggie Smith.
The ’06 Sox and ’77 Dodgers are probably the only clean ones
Lidge on the ridge: porkchop hill. He’s cooked for the season. Even with Uncle Charlie doing his best to salve burn wounds.
Qualified replacement: Firehose #39.
Makes you realize how good that ’77 Dodgers team was to accomplish that feat in that ballpark and, more importantly, in that era.
It took 18 years and the arrival of Coors Field in Denver before it was repeated, which also proved to be the leading edge of the home run era, coming as it did on the heels of expansions in ’93 and ’98, PEDs, and smaller ballparks.
Andy Martino is reporting that Escalona has been called up to fill in for Scott Eyre, Andy Tracy has been called up because Dobbs is still not ready to return and Stairs is mired in a long slump, and that Rodrigo Lopez has been released to make room for Tracy on the 40-man roster.
Tracy has had a good year – 26 HR, 96 RBI this year in AAA. Might as well give him a shot the way our bench is shaping up.
I still think they should bring Mathieson up.
WHY NOT MYERS!?
Pete,
See the post I just put under That’s Enough Charlie. According to Manuel, he is going to go with who he feels will give the Phils the best chance to win the game on that particular day.
Myers pitched an inning on Monday and 1 1/3 innings yesterday, so maybe Charlie either flat out did not want to use him or he thought that Myers might not be as effective if he were to use him 3 days in a row.
bski-
Hold on to your seats – Kyle Kendrick will be starting one of the double header games on Sunday
Jim Callis gave his opinion about who he thinks the Phils closer should be. From yesterday’s espn.com chat:
Sola (Baltimore)
Madson, Myers, Lidge, Park, who’s your closer?
Jim Callis
(3:03 PM)
Madson.
bski: One man’s opinion. What are his qualifications that make him any more expert on the subject than you, myself or the clerk at dry cleaners? Never heard of him.
Was that Wes Parker or Ryan Howard on Tues. night game-influencing tag in 9th? A pivotal pivot.
Never have I seen a pinch-hitter go 0-30 without consequence. Stairs riding a long way on one October pop.
jjg,
Jim Callis is the executive editor of Baseball America, both the magazine and the website. His expertise lies more with prospects, the draft, and the minors. I came across his answer in the chat and thought I’d add it to our discussion even though his is nothing more than another opinion as you said.
Sure seems like we’re going to have a closer by committee approach, at least over the next couple weeks anyway. I’m expecting to see a mix of Madson and Myers, with Lidge getting a couple chances here and there, depending on the situation (in both the 8th and 9th innings), which guy has been used a lot, which one is more rested, etc…
I get the feeling that the job is now open for the taking and that Charlie is going to use the next couple weeks to see if Madson can handle the closer role better now than he did earlier this season (he’s off to a good start over these last two opportunities), how Myers progresses, and if Lidge will ever be able to become effective again this year, all the while waiting to see if one of them will step up and show that he is now the best man for the job.
Like I said yesterday, I sure hope someone does step up and the issue is settled before we head into the playoffs. If there ends up being no clear-cut favorite, having an effective Myers and Madson share the 8th and 9th inning duties as Charlie sees fit wouldn’t bother me all that much, as it will still be a marked improvement over what we’ve gotten from sticking with Lidge.
Lou Marson started last night for the Indians. 1 for 4 with a double and a run.
also, Carlos Carrasco got smoked again his 2nd ML start – but still lowered his ERA to 12.38.
Thanks, bski.
At least Madson’s throwing strikes. That’s big. Still have doubts regarding him in pressure cooker. Contrary to conventional belief and situation (Zimmerman & Dunn on deck), Tuesday night was little pressure; most would’ve been an improvement over wildly ineffective Lidge; couldn’t have performed worse. Last night, got the job done, not masterfully. And it is the Nats, and Phils are working with a 6 game lead and breathing room.
If Myers is healthy (and in shape), I like his fighter’s mentality over Madson’s to KO opponents. That said, Madson’s stuff is lookin’ good, voice is deepening a little.
Well, it’s as I suspected regarding the closer role. From Andy Martino (5:12PM):
Charlie Manuel still views Brad Lidge as an excellent closer, possibly this season. And he plans on shifting the bullpen dynamic this month with the goal of fixing Lidge in time for the playoffs.
But if that does not happen, others will use September to prepare for postseason job. What had become gradually clear this week and was made official in a meeting after Wednesday’s game: Lidge is no longer the Phillies sole closer, though he will likely still serve in that role at times, and could regain total control of the job this year.
In a meeting after Ryan Madson earned the save in Wednesday’s 6-5 win over Washington Wednesday, Manuel and pitching coach Rich Dubee informed Lidge of a change in the back of the bullpen. With the ultimate goal still to begin the playoffs with an effective Lidge as closer, the Phillies will use different pitchers in save situations in the near future.
Though Manuel did not name them, Madson and Brett Myers are the likely other candidates to close games. The manager summoned Madson Wednesday in part because Myers was unavailable after pitching four consecutive days.
Beyond that, specifics remained fuzzy. “It’ll be what it’s going to be,” Manuel said. “That’s the way I look at it. I see where he can be our everyday closer again.
Lidge said he agreed with Manuel’s approach. “It’s real simple. Just get me work to get me where I need to be, and that’s about it. I told him, listen, whatever you need me to do, I’ll be willing to take the ball any time.
and seconded by Todd Zolecki (5:07PM)-with some quotes from Manuel:
Brad Lidge‘s role in the Phillies bullpen has changed, but how his role actually works remains to be seen.
Phillies manager Charlie Manuel said before tonight’s game against the Nationals at Nationals Park that to get Lidge right he plans to pitch him in low stress situations – the Phillies leading or trailing by a few runs – with the possibility to close on occasion. But he also wondered when those situations — blowouts where he can get work — will present themselves.
“I don’t see us using him in the seventh or eighth inning,” Manuel said. “I look at him as a closer. That’s kind of where he fits. I see him pitching once he needs work. If we’re behind in the game or we’re ahead or something by a good margin we’ll get him to make sure he pitches live in the game and things. That’s kind of how I look at it.”
Could he still close?
“He could close,” Manuel said.
Manuel and pitching coach Rich Dubee met with Lidge after last night’s 6-5 victory, when Ryan Madson picked up his second save in as many nights.
“It’s real simple,” Lidge said. “Just get me work to get me where I need to be. That’s about it. I told him, ‘Listen, whatever you need to do, I’ll be ready to take the ball at any time.’ I told him it doesn’t need to be a save situation.’ Obviously, I’m ready to throw in those. But if we’re up by six runs, down by six runs, I feel like I’m very close to where I need to be, but it wouldn’t hurt to get a couple more outings. We’re on the same page with everything and we had a good talk.”
Well, tonight sure looks like a low stress situation. Perfect time to get Lidge some work, right? Let’s see if Charlie sends him out there in the 9th.
How about that. I just checked the box score on espn.com and I see that Lidge is now pitching the 8th. I kinda thought we’d be seeing him tonight.
Cook Joe Bob ladled fat over plate; Dunn and Desmond noticed, sent it back to left field kitchen with alacrity. Off night at the Homesick Restaurant. Lost composure after 2nd bomb.
Utley: Rare passive mistake costly; 2nd base was his in 9th on PB. Flyin’ Hawaiian scores on Howard ground ball to tie it up, continuing the pressure grip on Nats - win, then, an outfield base hit away.
Howard: Surprised slimmed-down Ryan didn’t beat the relay (a strong-armed one) on the slow roller; on replay, looked like he got out of the box OK.