Ok, since I have moderately calmed down from last night, I feel more capable of talking about that game without all the vulgarities.
The score was 90-89 when the buzzer sounded, and the Wachovia Center was more than electric. It was down right thunderous after the 76ers’ triumphant 12-point comeback to keep their 6th seed playoff hopes alive. That is until the fans began to file out of the gym and the Sixers turned their backs and headed to the locker room to celebrate. Then a crime began to unfold. A basketball murder if you will. They killed our hopes to avoid the Detroit Pistons in the first round of the playoffs.
While the entire 76er team was in the locker room, Cavs Coach Mike Brown was pleading with the officials to take a look at the replay to determine if a foul was committed before the buzzer sounded. My first thought was, “Is that reviewable?” The answer is yes:
Instant replay review can be triggered by “A foul called with no time remaining on the clock (0:00) at the end of the fourth period or any overtime period, provided that it could affect the outcome of the game.” – NBA.com
You can see the replay on my previous post. The foul call clearly appeared after time had expired, and the game should have been over. Anyone claiming they heard a whistle (Mike Brown, at the other end of the court) is full of crap. The building was far too loud for anyone to hear that. And the Cleveland players who were the closest didn’t even react as if there was a foul actually called. Dumb ass Samuel Dalembert did react because he made some contact with Devin Brown and thought a foul might be called.
To me, the biased Sixers fan, this is all inconsequential. The ref should have kept the whistle in his pocket and let the game end with the play on the court, not the delayed sound of his whistle and eventual replay review. Cavs fans will argue LeBron was fouled earlier in the play on his drive to the hoop. I disagree, but that is their right to be biased in favor of their team. Contact and fouls occur on pretty much every play in the NBA, and the refs not calling that little bit was the right no-call. But following that up by making a late and questionable call for Devin Harris is beyond me. You would think if the officials were going rob the Sixers, they would given the foul to the poster boy of the NBA, the so-called King.
The story ends as usual for a Philly fan. Just like the foul ball homerun awarded to the Cubs the other night that led to a Phillies defeat, we go on muttering to ourselves and anyone listening “This always happens to us.” And we are left wondering why we are so tortured.
Side note: The Philadelphia fans deserve tremendous credit and praise for NOT responding to that debacle the way people would have expected them to. No one threw anything on the court or at the cheaters, I mean referees. I know personally it took every ounce not to wing my cup of iced tea at Ed Malloy, Mark Wunderlich and Greg Willard. So I just wanted to point that out since the negative stuff is what always makes its way to the news.
Observations from the game
- Attendance 20,730 – Sellout, largely to support the 76ers efforts for the 6th playoff spot. But there were a fair number of LeBron faithful.
- You know it’s not a good game for the Sixers when 2 of the 3 top plays shown on the jumbotron are Willie Green lay-ups!
- LeBron James made Andre Iguodala looked like the player we all have said he was – a #2 guy at best. Iggy shot 4-17, and it was clear he was trying to personally outdo LeBron as evidenced by only having 1 assist. James completely shut him down every time he tried to drive to the basket, exposing his lack of creative ball-handling and ability to get back solid defenders. He took terrible shots, often settling for the jump shot, which has become a theme as of late. Hopefully this is a wake-up call for Iguodala who has been flying extremely high. You’re good but not that good just yet.
- Louis Williams played out of his mind all game and carried the Sixers in the fourth quarter scoring 12 huge points. We really need him playing his best basketball going into the playoffs.
- Thaddeus Young was amazing. He only had 4 rebounds in the entire game, but 3 were critical offensives boards in the fourth quarter. Including one where he completely came flying out of nowhere in the middle of the lane, pulled down a Lou Williams miss and then went right back up for a short lefty hook. That gave the Sixers an 86-85 lead with 1:06 remaining. Young also got a big steal on LeBron for a fast break dunk. Then took a key charge on James when LeBron was clearly trying to put the Sixers away.
- Samuel Dalembert was back to his old habits again. Completely out of position on defense which lead to the foul trouble he was in all game. He looked weak and overmatched trying to guard Zydrunas Ilgauskas. There was one particular play that was especially infuriating. It was the one that came right after Thaddeus’ offensive rebound and put back. Cleveland ran their pet “thumbs-up play” where Ilgauskas sets a screen at the top of the key for LeBron. The Sixers played it well by sending a double team over as soon as James went around the screen. The defense forced him into a typical LeBron situation where he is trapped and he leaves his feet looking to make a pass. We had him. Until clueless Sammy D leaves Ilgauskas open under the rim for no apparent reason. James tossed the ball in that direction, and Dalembert could not recover in time to stop Ilgauskas from scoring the lay-up. That put the Cavs back on top by one, and I went berzerk. Besides the block on LeBron at the end of the game, Sammy gave the Sixers nothing all game.
Finally, I wouldn’t be surprised if Andre Miller got a fine from the NBA for his appropriate conduct after the game. After Lou missed the desperation shot someone from the Cavs tossed the ball to the other end of the court into the floor seats under the basket. Miller sprinted full-court after the ball just to punt it up to the rafters. He then runs after the ball again and heaves it 15 rows into the stands before finally exiting for the locker room.
That display of emotion from the most even-keeled player I’ve watched in the league was the only thing to soften the feeling of being kicked in the crotch by the referees.
Now we can only hope the 76ers players bottle up that disappointment, that anger, and unleash their rage on the Detroit Pistons and prove my previous comment wrong.
Iggy is hurt man. Don’t say Lebron made him look like a #2 man. That is silly.
Anyone can see Iggy is tentative to head to the rim right now and he isn’t getting any elevation on his jump shot.
Joe – what’s silly? Do you really believe he is a #1 guy in the NBA? And when I say #1 I mean a near lock all-star every year. A guy that you can give the ball to and say carry us when needed?
You might be in the minority if you believe that but I’d be interested in hearing why. If you’ve read the Philly blogs, comments and forums the past two seasons the consensus has always been that Andre Iguodala is not a #1 guy that can carry an NBA team on his back. He’s not on the same level of the players like Kobe, LeBron, CP3 and the list goes on and on. That is the reason most fans don’t want the Sixers to pay him that kind of money. Do we want him here, absolutely but not for Kobe or LeBron type money.
As far as being hurt – that is a cop-out. He bruised his left leg on Friday and went out the very next day and played very well against Washington and now it becomes an excuse? Why are you making that excuse for him when it is clear Andre isn’t and wouldn’t ever make for himself.
To me it seemed pretty obvious he didn’t play his normal game last night. He often looks to pass and get other guys involved and combines his scoring with a lot of facilitating for the rest of the team, especially when Miller is out of the game. He played one-on-one basketball pretty much all game and looked bad doing it against LeBron. It’s just reality.
Saying Lebron owned Iggy makes Iggy a #2 is silly to me. I don’t like that rationale for several reasons. 1) It is Lebron.(He owns everyone) 2) Iggy is injured, whether or not you, me, or Iggy himself want to admit it. He hasn’t played as aggressively since he was injured. I am not using it as a cop out. I am stating what has seemed obvious to me. He is hurt.
You say a #1 is a guy that can “carry a team when needed” and is a near lock for the all star game annually. I don’t like this logic much either. The all star game as a whole is an absolute joke to me. They only take into account offensive productivity and marketability, which makes me want to vomit.
Caron Butler is a near lock annually for the all star game. Iggy has less experience and is a far and away better defender, so I think Iggy meets that requirement pretty much. His numbers this year are all star worthy probably.
Iggy has carried this team in some instances. Know who else has? Miller, Lou, and Thad all have. I think all these guys can go get a basket in crunch time. I think this team is best suited to go for more of a “team oriented” approach to the #1 question…
I look to the Pistons for a direction this team is going in. The Pistons won without a #1 or did they have 4 #1s? I think the Sixers right now have some extremely talented players in Miller, Iggy, Lou, and Thad. I think all can go out there and “create a shot” relatively easily and more importantly make it when it matters. All 4 have in many circumstances lifted this team from the ashes and brought them to a win.(Lou and Thad last night) I think an argument can be made that all 4 of those guys can be #1s.
With the game on the line, would I rather have Andre Miller break down his defender in the post and get a great look or Gilbert Arenas chucking 30 footers? I think the way I ask it tells my answer.
FOCUS: My answer is that on a great team, often times people get caught up in the individual aspect, but they don’t realize that many great teams don’t even have a clear cut #1. Look at the Spurs. When they need a basket, they sometimes go to Tony, sometimes Manu, sometimes Duncan. Are all 3 #1s?(See Lakers, Suns, Celtics, Pistons – do they all potentially have 3 #1s?) If so, I think the Sixers have 3 guys in their future that could warrant that title in Lou, Thad, and Iggy. They need someone that can score in the post though. So Iggy is a #1 just as much as Paul Pierce and Manu Ginobli are/have been.
I do agree that last night Iggy tried to make a statement against Lebron for some reason and probably cost the team the game. That was a one time thing though, so I am not worried.
“You know it’s not a good game for the Sixers when 2 of the 3 top plays shown on the jumbotron are Willie Green lay-ups!” hahaha!
Your right LeBron owns just about everyone. BUT, the way Andre decided to play made him look much more inadequate then need be. He could have went out and had a 10 – 10 – 10 game, helped the Sixers win an important game and looked fantastic playing his game. Instead he tried to play LeBron’s game and he just doesn’t have the skill set to do that. Especially against the creme of the crop in the NBA which matters the most in the playoffs. Do I want him to prove me wrong? Absolutely but I think people are getting a little a head by crowning him a #1 having done nothing in the playoffs nor leading a team to a winning regular season record. Let’s see him lead the team to a better record and some playoff wins first.
I think the numbers speak for themselves in regards to your thought that the Sixers have 4 number 1 guys. You can try and make that argument but Thad is pretty far off as he is still extremely raw. Lou has been very inconsistent all year. Yes he has shown some signs but thats it, just signs. I love A. Miller I can’t say anything bad about him or his game. He simply knows how to play basketball.
I agree with your comparison of Butler and Iggy, although I disagree on the defensive part. I think Butler’s defense has been on par with Iggy this year. Caron Butler isn’t a lock for an all-star every year as evidenced by only 2 all-stars in 6 seasons (the last two seasons). He is good but he has just now broke out to be a player a team can rely heavily on as a potential go to guy and I think he may have reached his ceiling this year.
Besides Detroit how many NBA championship teams did not have a clear cut #1 in say the last 20 years? In fact how many NBA champions have not had a flat out stud superstar? Detroit is the exception not what history has proven. That doesn’t mean the Detroit model isn’t the way of the future, but I doubt it.
We can look at the Spurs – they have Tim Duncan Hall of famer, clear cut superstar caliber player.
Boston – KG and Peirce are flat out studs.
Iggy simply is not there yet in my opinion. This is his 5th season and he has progressed every year. The question that needs to be answered is where is his ceiling?
The need for a legit post scorer has been a issue for us since Charles left. Those guys are hard to come by.
I don’t watch Caron on a daily basis. I cannot see his defense being on par with Iggy’s but I guess I will see in the playoffs. He will have to make up for Arenas’ ineptness on the side of the court.
I think the creation of the salary/luxury cap and crazy trade restrictions is an attempt by the NBA to make the Detroit’s possible IMO.
The guys who are winning championships are not #1 guys though. They are hall of famers. Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, Jordan, the dream, etc.
Its not like we can magically go and create a HOFer right now. It isn’t gonna happen. I see the Detroit blueprint as the only one to look at right now. Do you see a better one? I don’t see any HOFers in their prime available for the picking.
Pierce is not that good. He should not be used along with KG in any sentence really. KG is stud. Pierce is “great.” Something like that would be fine to me.
I think Thad has a far higher ceiling than Iggy. I think he will grow into a better player and may be “the guy” to lead us to a championship. I don’t expect you to agree with that.
The Sixers don’t have 4 guys on that Pistons level, but I definitely think all 4 have a ceiling that is surely high enough.
Joe – I agree with pretty much everything you just said. Your right it is hard to land a HOF player and the Detroit model may be the best way for the Sixers as currently assembled to get there. But history says you need a HOF (creme of the crop #1 players) to win a championship and history usually is the best indicator of future outcomes. Why I have pause with the Detroit model is they were only able to win one championship with pretty much the same roster all these years. Whereas teams with a HOF player have been able to win multiple years. And they lost with their no HOFer team approach to the Cleveland LeBron’s who have a bunch of scrubs and a guaranteed Hall of Famer. If Detroit somehow doesn’t make it to the Eastern Conference Finals this year I think that formula will be in question. That is the exact reason I truly respect the GMs job.
I 100% agree on the Thaddeus young point. I think he has star player potential if he develops that mindset. His offensive skills will develop with time he is still just a kid. Right now the only knock I have on him is his toughness/aggressiveness. He doesn’t go to the line that much because he avoids contact and goes soft to the basket when defenders are around. I wish he would just go up and use his athleticism and dunk on ppl or get fouled rather than trying to finesse the ball around guys. Hopefully with time and some more NBA muscle he will feel more confident doing that.
Good stuff Joe, hope to see you around the blog more.
Interesting conversation guys.
Have to disagree BIG time with the Detroit comparison though. Detroit was able to pull off their team approach because of one reason: they had the right personel…aka: grizzled veterans that don’t care about stats, don’t have big egos, and most importantly…have ENORMOUS bball IQ, and understand floor spacing, offensive chemistry, when to pass vs shoot, team defense, etc.
The Sixers…while yes, we hustle, scrap and play hard…to compare our young guns to some of the smartest and most veteran savvy players in the league (Sheed, Chauncy, Rip, Prince, McDyesse) is a joke. I mean…how many teams can say they have a genuine not only all star, but HALL OF FAME TALENT (Sheed)…that basically chooses not to be in the spotlight, dims his own game down to concentrate on little things, and happens to play with other all stars that have the same mindset? Very, VERY rare.
Right now we have a tough minded PG that would be a nice #3 option on most teams (Andre)…a poor man Scottie Pippen type utility guy at the #2 option (I think Josh Smith and Gerald Wallace are very comparable in their games)…a “post presence” that after SIX YEARS still has no clue how to play team defense and step in for weakside help, or box out (Talking about you Mr. Dalembert!)…and has a 19 year old tweener that looks like a Jamison…and a 6th man combo guard that is talented but inconsistent.
Do you really think this team, without a true monster in the pivot or legit swingman to drop a cut throat 20 ppg, can actually ever do any damage? The answer is: no. Ironically, the current team (heart, hustle, scrap, defense, chemistry) is built perfectly to be centered around a shoot first scorer that loves being the man and can take and hit the big shot. Gotta love how AI in his prime would fit perfectly with this current squad.
I disagree even reading recaps, blogs, forums etc if I see I am the only one…
To me Sam committed the foul on Brown, and CLEARLY before the horn sounded. His face immediately after the buzzer tells us all.
What is true is that:
1) surprisingly refs didn’t call what COULD have been a foul on LeBron usual four-steps drive
2) Ilgauskas did push Sam towards Brown, and refs should have seen that as well, since they watched many replays
3) usually those kinds of contacts are not called anyway (Lebron’s drive AND Brown shot) because you let the players decide the game, unless it’s a clear foul, which was not the case
Anyway I am ok even after the loss because Sixers played a great game. Of course, had I watched the game at the arena or live I would have gone nuts, though (LOL)
I did go nuts and will never be “ok” with a loss.
I don’t think the Sixers played a great game even a little bit. They played one strong quarter. And I would go as far to stay 3 guys played one strong quarter because the other guys didn’t do much to help the team win on Monday.
What I can do is get over it and mentally prepare for the Detroit series, which could be interesting depending on how the Sixers react to that loss.
I want the team to finish .500 but if Iggy is still laboring from that lower left leg bruise like Joe has insisted above, I would sit him down against Charlotte. Because if that leg bruise is going cause him to play as poorly as he did Monday against an equally if not better defender than LeBron in Tayshaun Prince it could be an ugly series.
Yeah, Iggy def. needs to sit this game, we need him 100% or we don’t have a prayer. I’d add that Prince is a far superior defender then LeBron, especially with his ability to alter shots if someone beats him off the dribble and is in the paint.
One thing we know for sure: if the ’05 playoffs told us anything, Dalembert is apparently capable of averaging a near 20-10 vs. the Pistons in a prime time atmosphere. If he got absurd stats against them in a 4-1 losing effort, to basically in 5 games earn his 60 million dollar contract, he’d better make damn sure he plays that way again.
I’m petrified too because I have a feeling this will be the one playoffs where Detroit will NOT be taking a game off to coast. I can’t imagine how pissed that locker room is over their efforts the last two years…I think we are going to be encountering a very businesslike, workhorse Pistons team that sees their matchup with Boston in the conf finals as their destiny. Going to be a tough matchup…
Dave – you are forgeting one extremely important and influential factor about the ’05 playoff team that is missing now: 31ppg, 10 apg, 2spg 47% FGs, 41% 3pt FGs and 90% from the line. We all know who that is. Sammy wasn’t dominating anyone in the post in that ’05 series. He was the biggest beneficiary of 100% attention placed on AI. That will not be the case this year and I don’t see Sammy do much on offense against Sheed.
Oh yeah, we had that Iverson guy…;-)
Agreed Danny…my comments about D-Bere were more meant in sarcasm. As far as I’m concerned, Sammy has made great overall improvements to his game; he has shown better footwork in the post, improved his shot blocking, his one on one defense is better, he fouls less and is generally more consistent…
…but until he learns to box out every possession, do the proper job of a weak side defender, and help out on drives to the basket quicker, Detroit is going to MAUL us with offensive rebounding…Maxiel and Sheed in particular. Probably the biggest key to this series might be the play of Reggie Evans/Thad Young in the interior. They need to go 110% and be pretty flawless on the defensive end.
@Dave T
I think you are looking at the current Pistons team and thinking the championship team was even remotely similar. It really was not. Before I continue, I think the Sixers still need a Rasheed Wallace. That was Detroit’s missing piece. The Pistons won in 03-04 and I think we are a far better team with a much brighter future than they were in 02-03.
Sorry for the novel…
Point Guard: Billups v. Andre Miller. I think Andre Miller right now was as good as Billups in every aspect of the game except 3 point/ft shooting. I think Miller has a better midrange game to somewhat offset that though. Advantage Billups just because he can spread the court much moreso.
Shooting Guard: Iggy v. Rip. You can disagree with me on this and I am sure many will, but when it comes to overall defense I think Iggy is far superior. Rip is good at playing defense within himself. Rip didn’t even know what 3 pointers were in 03-04 as well. I think Iggy wins this by a landslide.
Small Forward: The battle of the South Paws. This was Prince’s sophmore year. He played much more ball than Thad in college. I think Prince gets the win on the defensive side of the ball by a hair, but I think Thad’s post game is more developed than Prince’s was. I think the range goes to Prince by a hair, but as an overall scoring threat Thad wins. I view this as a push. Next year, Thad’s sophmore year, will be advantage Thad.
Rasheed: We don’t have this yet. I will admit it. The Pistons got him along the way. I think the Sixers could do the same thing with someone else. Elton Brand maybe? Who knows. Some disgruntled stars will be out there.
Sammy vs. Ben: The battle of the defenders. Sammy gets 2.4 blocks. Ben got 3.0. Sammy gets 10.4 boards. Ben got 12.0. 10.6 pts for Sammy vs. 6.9 from Ben. When you compare their per 40 minute numbers, they are eerily similar on the in rebs and blocks. I think this is close to a push. The way Sammy has played the last 2 months makes it a push IMO. If Sammy’s play diminishes, I would surely say Ben takes the advantage. As is, I see a push.
SO I think at those 4 positions, the Sixers are as good if not better right now. The Sixers need a Rasheed. I never said they have one, but the Pistons didn’t whine, cry, and roll up in a ball just because they didn’t have that one more piece, they played within themselves and when the opportunity came up for that final piece, they took it.
Then you look at the reserves…
Pistons had Okur, Jon Barry, Chucky Atkins and Corliss.
The Sixers have Jason Smith, Rodney Carney, Lou Williams, and Reggie Evans.
I see a direct correlation here pretty much.(much younger though for Sixers) Maybe you and me see differently though.
I never said the Sixers had their Rasheed. I think the Pistons without Rasheed would have had a shot at some titles assuming they kept Okur.
I just think people too often create illusions about championship teams. The Pistons won the championship as a rather young team with an experienced Point Guard and a guy they got for NOTHING via trade.
I think next year they will show great improvement and will be similar to the Pistons. I think Thad works on his 3 point shot, along with Lou, Jason Smith, Carney and Iggy. All those guys have the ability to be 3 point threats. At that point, they will be better than the Pistons were w/o Rasheed IMO.
@Dave T
I think Maxiell poses a great problem to this team. Guy can flat out play the PF position even though he is 6-7. His first step is extremely fast, like a SG possibly and he is extremely strong and athletic. He will dunk over someone and will muscle offensive rebounds consistently.
Rasheed getting offensive boards? Maybe. I don’t see it. I think his overall post game on both sides of the court is dangerous. His 3 point shot it as well. He doesn’t get offensive boards really. Not his game. I would like for Jason Smith to go toe-to-toe with Rasheed personally. It sounds crazy, but I think it would allow for Sammy to stay close to the net and open things up for the Sixers on the offensive side of the ball. I think Reggie is such a crappy offensive player and an overall bad defender. His hustle is appreciated, but for every offensive rebound he gets, he travels or presses too hard getting caught out of position giving the other team a wide open shot.
[Begin Rant]In the current matchup, The Sixers HAVE TO bench Willie Green. He is the reason this team faces 8 point deficits at the end of the first quarter so often. He allows for Rip Hamilton to defend Willie, who is a joke. Willie then has to defend someone on the opposite end, which once again is ridiculous. Willie Green is just such a bad player. If you put Thad in the starting lineup and put Green on the bench for the past 4 months, and I see this team with 4 more wins at least. All problems lead to Willie for this team. Cheeks is doing a pitiful job coaching by trotting him out there night in and night out killing this team. [End Rant]
Joe – something quick that stuck out to me that you didn’t mention regarding the point guard match up is age. BIG BIG edge to Billups at 25 years old vs. A Miller 32 right now. How long do you think A. Miller will be a franchise point guard? We got him for 1-year and depending on how much money he wants will depend whether Ed will resign a 33-year old point guard. That is a very very big factor because we have NO suitable back-up right now, let alone a guy we are grooming to be the starter of the future. I argue this team lacks a PG of the future as well as a power forward. If you thinking they can compete next year with the addition of a PF ok, but we won’t have the longevity Detroit had consider Millers age.
Joe, I think it’s a mistake to compare head to head starters in the same era, let alone different eras, and compare teams that way. While it makes for interesting debate, you can’t just stack up PG vs PG and SG vs SG, and say who has the better team that way. It comes down to how each individual functions for their team.
Ben Wallace (when he was in his prime) is a great example. You can compare him then statistically to Dalembert now, but doing so is kinda laughable. Dalembert is a guy for us that will alter shots when people get in the lane, can man up pretty well one on one against decent centers, is a good defensive rebounder, allows our wing defenders to gamble, and can sometimes hit a bucket or two when we give him the ball in the post.
Ben Wallace, for the 02-05 Detroit teams, ANCHORED them. He was an intimidating presence that perpetually stopped people from driving the lane without thinking. He was the glue of the entire team defense, and was the major cog that allowed the Carlisle/LB Detroit teams to play like they did. Ben Wallace could have averaged 2.0 ppg, and he still would have been their co-MVP year to year.
Stats mean FAR less then usual when it comes to team chemistry in the Detroit sense. I also think it’s almost useless to compare Iggy and Rip. Iggy, for us, is our “go to guy”, that is an all around, do everything and score 18-20 ppg for us, that D’s u, is our leader, takes the big drive, and can get to the wrack or pass when needed.
Rip, for Detroit, was simply a veteran scorer that could toss in 18-19 ppg, run any defender ragged, and was an incredible decision maker. Two completely different styles, that form two completely different functions.
Detroit was one of the rarest teams EVER in that it had 4 all star caliber players sacrifice stats year to year for the better of the team…got along…had off the chart bball IQ…and had legitimate potential 17-20 ppg scorers that could fill it up when needed.
This Sixers team: has heart, hustle, scrap, and tough play. We aren’t even in the same realm of bball IQ, heady veteran play as Detroit, nor do we have the talent to pull off an offensive “by committee” approach.
Our team desperately needs a new PG to have grooming in the wings when Andre ages quickly…desperately needs a post scorer (or for Thad to morph into Jamison in one year, who I see his game as similar too), and needs an actual shooting guard, to compliment Iggy with some scoring.
Wallace and Sammy have very similar per 40s, which tend to be extremely indicative of how a player impacts a game normally. Your “archoring” comment applies to Sammy as well, since without him the lane would be abused on a nightly basis.
Rip was the “go to” guy in Detroit that year.(if they had one) He took more shots per 40 or very close and simply was not as efficient a scorer. If he was, he would have averaged the same as Iggy does now or within a point.
Rip used to run off screens back then constantly to get his opponent tired. Iggy does not do that. The statistics tend to show Iggy to be a better decision maker than Rip however.
You keep saying the Pistons had “heady veteran” play and you are referring to a bunch of guys who had been in the league 2, 5, 7, and 8 years. I am not including Rasheed because I feel we compare to the Pistons without Rasheed.
We have guys that have been in the league 1, 4, 6 and 9 years. I mean our current team is essentially as “veteran” as their team was. The Pistons team that won was much older if at all. They are getting old now. Yeah.
(I would define Andre Miller as “heady veteran”)
As far as basketball IQs, I think Miller and Thad have extremely high IQs. Iggy seems to have a somewhat high IQ. Lou’s is not high. I think the Sixers have plenty of guys that can put up 17-20 ppg. Thad, Miller, and Iggy have all shown they can do that. Lou has proven himself to be able to score as well. We could easily hold 2 different meanings for talent…
I don’t buy your description of the Sixers team at the end. The current Sixers team is extremely talented. Thad has more tools than Prince could ever dream of. Ditto Iggy, Rip.
You see Thad similar to Jamison? I never saw a younger Jamison really so I can’t say. I compare Thad to a more athletic Prince mostly. Both bring that southpaw game that tends to trick opponents. Other people have said Odom.
I don’t understand why Mo hasn’t tried out the lineup with Iggy at the 2 and Thad at the 3 as a starting lineup. I think Iggy can guard 2s, so it really just confuses me.
Looks like we’re writing novels back and forth Joe haha:
–IMO, stats per 40 are probably the least indicative and most worthless stat that can possibly be compiled in all of sports.
–I did say Sammy being in the lane helps alter shots, and allows our wing guys to gamble. This is different then “anchoring” the defense. Ben Wallace + Sheed had the same type of effect (not AS big, but the same type) as KG has had for Boston this year. I’m not just talking about Ben Wallace’s play on court…I’m talking about his overall presence on the team. Sammy D is no where near having that type of impact on the defensive end, where he dominates through leadership ability, intimidation, and gets the guys on the same page leading by example…as Ben Wallace did.
–Detroit never had a go to guy…and if they did, most of the time it was Chauncy or Sheed. That’s my point in that you can’t compare Iggy vs. Rip, they had different functions…Iggy IS our go to and “do everything” guy. Rip was more of a very efficient scorer for them…an important cog and central offensive piece, but not “the man” for them.
–I’m comparing this team to not just the ’02 Pistons team, but the 02-05 Pistons team (largely stayed the same, as they had a revolving and unsuccessful bench). Given that…yes, our team is VASTLY inferior bball IQ-wise. Andre Miller is as heady a veteran player as you can get…but to compare Iggy, Lou, Green, Thad & D-Bert to Billups/Rip/Sheed/Prince (yes, Prince was that bball savvy in his 2nd – 5th years)…is kinda laughable to me. Only Andre Miller, and now that he’s evolving more, Iggy, come close.
I’m saying Detroit’s unit as a COHESIVE WHOLE trumps ours as far as ability to have offensive chemistry together. They ran half court sets, which requires far more intelligence and court awareness then our offense does, which relies solely on Andre Miller or Iggy creating, or Lou getting hot, in our half court…and how our team runs the break. That whole era of Pistons team was comparable to San Antonio in how they ran their halfcourt sets…very, very rare.
–I’m not comparing Thad to a younger Jamison…I’m saying I think Thad, in 3-5 years, once he matures and has a few years under his belt, has the capability to be like the veteran Jamison became , in the sense that he might be one of the very few 6’8 guys in the league to be able to be truly successful at both the SF and PF positions…having a solid wing and post game on offense, and being able to D up both to success as well.
–Thad’s game doesn’t seem much like Prince’s to me. Prince is the model of what a role player should be…an excellent passer with great court vision, great one on one defense, great team defense, can take smaller wings in the post with a finesse game, hustles his butt off to get boards with his length, and can score when needed. Prince was never really “raw”…he had a great sense of the game from the beginning, even at UK.
Thad’s talent is far superior, and he has the chance to become a star and be a more focal point of the offense more…but he’s not nearly as versatile as Prince is, nor does he understand the game as well when they were of similar ages. Thad right now is much much much more raw then Prince was at UK, and is relying more on athletic ability and instincts, and from his days playing PF at Gtech and high school, then really knowing the game yet. But he’s a worker, and someday when he’s able to see the game better and fulfills his potential talent…yeah, he’ll be a far superior player.
–The Iggy+Thad deal…that is def an intriguing idea…the problem is if we have them as the 2/3…we basically have no three point shooting. It’s kind of a quandry…we can either do that, kill our three point shooting, and get a better post guy (be it Brand through FA, Wilcox or maybe a Ty Thomas via trade, or an Anthony Randolph/Darrel Arthur via draft)…or we teach Thad to be the 4, and try to land a scoring 2 guard that shoot the 3 ball to be the 2, while Iggy remains the 3…where the risk is that Thad might be smallish as the PF. Interesting choices we have to make!
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Ty Thomas? UGH. He serves NO purpose on this team. He is a thinner, more athletic Reggie Evans in that he gives you nothing on the offensive end besides rebounding. Lets not bail out the Bulls idiotic and redundant draft choice by taking that guy.
In order of importance we need:
1. Low post scorer
2. Back-up point guard being groomed to be our future starter
3. Three-point shooting of any kind, BUT that player must be able to defend, like that guy Raja Bell we used to have who decided to become the player we needed after he left the Sixers. Oh or that guy Bruce Bowen we used to have who did exactly the same thing.
…or Brian Shaw, who was also a 3 point machine that could D up…or Harpring (good but not great 3 point shooter)…we might as well start a farm team for 3 point/defensive specialists and then just give the players away for free to other teams.
Dannie, totally disagree about Ty Thomas…I think he’s been completely unfairly ripped on. This is a guy that has been caught in a total log jam of big men under both Skiles and Boylan, and was given the Obie-Dalembert treatment (shuffled in and out randomly…5 minutes one night, 20 minutes the next, not knowing his role, etc). It is impossible for players in logjams to show their true potential…under Ben Wallace, Joe Smith, J Noah he had too many minutes taken away. Now it’s Gooden/Noah/him/Gray sharing minutes. If he got a regular 25 minutes a game and a coach’s trust, I think the league would be surprised at how talented he is. He was in Boylan’s doghouse from the get go, which was very unfair. A fresh start will do him real good.
When Tyrus Thomas was getting regular minutes at the beginning of the season under Skiles, it was obvious he had REALLY improved his offensive game, worked on his jumpshot, and he used a dropstep in the post a bit more. The dude is 20 years old…I think to label him a bust already is waaaaay too premature. He busts his a** on defense and is a great rebounder/shot blocker too…I think his offensive upside is far better then a guy like Sean Williams (who I also like).
Also, I’m not saying he’s our savior or anything…I think the order in landing a post presence should be:
1. Elton Brand
2. Chris Wilcox
3. Draft from available pool of mid 1st round big men (probably Anthony Randolph, Darrel Arthur, Richard Hendrix would be the three best…or gambling on the Rider’s 20/10 guy…Ryan Anderson maybe, or pray Kevin Love somehow falls far.
4. Pursue a possible minor trade for a guy whose stock is down but are young and still have upside…Ty Thomas, Charlie Villanueva, Channing Frye, etc. (I don’t love these guys, but a 6’8 – 6’10 post presence with SOME potential is better then the crap we have now).
5. Use the midlevel exemption to sign a vet post guy, along the lines of a Joe Smith type.
Backup PG’s…I’d love to try and nab a nice PG from teams that have a glut via trade:
–Memphis: Crittenton/Lowry (I’m assuming Conley is their starter)
–Seattle: Luke Ridnour/Earl Watson
–Portland: Jarret Jack/Steve Blake
–Chicago: Chris Duhon
–Orlando: Arroyo/Dooling
Via draft:
–DJ Augustine would be the perfect guy to groom…a Damon Stoudamire type, with better handle, that is pass first, but can score and hit the three. But I think draft we have to go big.
2nd round:
–Jamar Butler (OSU)
–Brian Roberts (Dayton)
…love both these guys because they are scoring PG’s (who I don’t usually like) but off the bench that’s what we need…a guy capable of running the team that can also hit 3′s and slash).
We will probably just have to agree to disagree on Thomas. I didn’t say he was a bust I didn’t think he was that great the begin with honestly. He played well in the NCAA tournament run and everyone went crazy over another athlete, which at the time that is all he was. A guy that could run, jump and block shots. It’s the NBA most 20-year olds that size can run, jump and block shots for the most part. They come a dime a dozen. I want basketball players. Guys that have skills now, not 4 years from now.
Everyone likes to talk age when a guy isn’t already “there” yet, but let us also consider how many of those same guys who were 20 years old with potential that didn’t develop. I don’t see the reliable offensive player (especially on the block) in Thomas that the Sixers need and getting him to be our post scorer now makes no sense since he currently is not a post scorer. How long do you want to wait for him to develop? People seem to think this team is ready to go to the next level now, if he does become a reliable scorer that is 2-3 years away minimum IMO. The argument can be made get him cheap now before he blows up into a great player. Ok, but right now that is a gamble for role we would want him to play. I will take him over Reggie Evans to play that role, but not to be our post scorer.
Further if he was so great why isn’t he getting the minutes? Why would they draft Noah? Im sorry but that says the organization who sees him play every day and are paying his salary doesn’t see what you see. Not saying you can’t be right just saying I don’t see it either.
More – he is 6-9, 215. I really hope you expect him to put on at least 20 more pounds to be a dominant player on the block. Antwan Jamison is 6-9, 235 which is on the smaller size for a power forward, but he makes up for it with tremedous offensive versatility. I don’t see Thomas developing that kind of offensive prowess.