According to Fox Sports’ Ken Rosenthal:
The Phillies have reached agreement with the Indians on a trade that would bring them left-hander Cliff Lee and outfielder Ben Francisco for Class A right-hander Jason Knapp, Class AAA right-hander Carlos Carrasco, shortstop Jason Donald and catcher Lou Marson, according to major-league sources.
If true, this means the Phillies just got the 2008 AL Cy Young award winner without giving up Kyle Drabek, Dominic Brown, Michael Taylor or JA Happ. They also got a RH bat off the bench in Ben Francisco.
I will have a full post on the Lee deal up later today (what happens with Pedro now, by the way?)
Initial reaction? This is a slam dunk move. I wanted Halladay more, but Lee is still a huge addition, and we didn’t mortgage the future one bit.
I would’ve been happier with Halladay but this is still a great deal beause we didn’t have to give up any of our best prospects and we got a righty to have off the bench (although I would’ve preferred a utility infield righty to an outfielder)…I am glad to add such a great pitcher but I am not sure what to make of having 4 lefties in the rotation….
Pete,
Do you think it puts the Phils at any sort of disadvantage to have such a lefty heavy rotation?
my initial reaction says our lefty-heavy line-up works just fine, why wouldn’t a lefty rotation?
I guess Halladay is completely out of the picture now huh? Imagine if we traded for him as well…
per my mid-season top-20 prospects, we traded our 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th best prospects in this deal. But hung on to 1-3.
raro-
Glen (Philadelphia)
Ken Rosenthal is reporting the Phillies acquired Cliff Lee and Ben Francisco for Knapp, Donald, Marson, and Carasco. Thoughts on this deal?
Jim Callis(2:09 PM)
Stunned, frankly. From everything we’ve read about the Phillies, it seems the four pieces they value the most right now are in some order, Kyle Drabek, Dominic Brown, J.A. Happ and Michael Taylor. The Indians didn’t get any of them. They got one high-upside guy (Knapp), and he’s in low Class A and has some shoulder fatigue. The rest of the guys are solid regulars at best–they’re not stars. Lee is very affordable for next season, and the AL Central is a very winnable division. I don’t like this trade at all for the Indians. From the Phillies’ standpoint, this is a great deal, to hold on to the young guys you want and get a frontline starter. I’d rather have Halladay than Lee, but I’d rather give up this package for Lee than meet J.P. Ricciardi’s reported demands for Halladay.
Yeah, Hamels, Lee, and Blanton in the playoffs shouldn’t be too bad. Got a bit nervous when I saw the one report where Taylor was on the list of potential trade pieces. Glad the initial report proved to be correct.
Now let’s hope that the guys Amaro fought so hard to keep do indeed turn out to be top of the rotation pitchers and/or all-star caliber players that keep us in the thick of it for years to come.
Wonder if Ricciardi has any second thoughts about holding his ground. Turns out that neither he nor Amaro blinked (which I think is really good for us). It will be interesting to see what Ricciardi ends up getting for Halladay.
depending on what we said we’d give up for Halladay, Riccardi definitely screwed himself. The Phillies had the most to offer and now EVERYONE knows they are out of it and can offer less.
Pete, it doesn’t bother you that the best hitters (and most likely to face in the playoffs) in the NL (other than the Phillies players) are all righties?
The Cleveland fans are jumping ship right now… See comments in the Cleveland Plain Dealer article.
http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2009/07/cliff_lee_ben_francisco_headed.html#comments
I like, and agree more with, Jim Callis’ assessment than I do with Ken Rosenthal’s (“……..it will be a coup for both the Phillies and Indians.”). Rosenthal seems never to want to ruffle any feathers.
Adam -
I’ve been checking the Plain Dealer all day, Wilson, and I’ve seen the comments. We’ve been on that side before. Who knows, in a few years it may very well turn out to be not as bad a deal as they think it is now.
That is true Adam, the cards are all right handed bats and our ballpark lends itself to right handed hitters, but their good pitchers are righties as well and our lineup smokes theirs.
haha, great find Wilson.
“Initial reaction? This is a slam dunk move. I wanted Halladay more, but Lee is still a huge addition, and we didn’t mortgage the future one bit.”
Really…I have check numerous sources and on ever count all 4 players the Tribe will be receiving was in your top 10 prospects. Yeah we didn’t get Kyle “Tommy John” Drabek, but came away with a nice assortment of good talent.
Jason -
As I said earlier, comparing this deal to the Halladay asking price… This trade makes the team overall better now and in the future… but probably weaker in a playoff series.
Over a 162 game season having 5 good pitchers and more prospects gets you more wins. But in the playoffs your top 2 start most of the games. Lee/Hammels does not approach Halliday/Hammels. And having a solid guy like Happ at the back end of the rotation means little in the playoffs.
I’m happy with the move, and my head says it was the right thing to do. But it will really sting if Halladay ends up on a WS roster somewhere else. Happy, but hard to get excited.
Does anyone actually think that they will still trade for Halladay? I just thought it was curious that the 3 players Toronto wanted are still “available”. Just a wishful thought.
Overall, I think this is a great trade. They get a frontline pitcher, RH bat off the bench and keep their top 3 prospects. The only players I see this affecting are Mayberry (possibly trade bait), and Martinez / Lopez / Moyer (who is your 5th starter?)
Anthony Gargano just said on WIP that the Phils had a last call with the Blue Jays before they pulled the trigger on the Lee deal and offered the Jays the same deal they ended up making for Lee PLUS Happ and the Jays turned them down….
I am a Tribe fan. Can anyone tell me if we got royally screwed or if this is a decent deal for us?
You guys are going to love Lee. He is an absolute pro and for the past year and a half has been one of the top pitchers in baseball. He never gets hurt and pitches a ton of innings.
Also, this means being able to re-sign or replace Blanton using the difference between Lee and Halladay’s salaries. Financially really a slam dunk. You have money for next year and you keep bargains like Happ on the roster. In fact this is probably a much better deal for 2010 then for this year.
doug -
thanks for stopping by. here is my top 20 prospect analysis.
quick take…
Knapp – throws 97mph and is still working into his frame. probably 3-4 years away, I always saw him as our closer of the future, but he is currently a starter.
Carrasco – solid starter. lows 90s fastball, above average change-up. still young. needs to mature mentally to get it done in the majors.
Donald – scrappy doubles hitter. could be an above average regular, not a star.
Marson – great on-base guy for a catcher (think Jason Kendall). no power though, just singles.
I think that Marson, Donald and Carrasco will all contribute to your team and can all be starters, but not all-stars. Knapp is a high ceiling talent, but it’s too early to tell what you have with him.
I can see it now. Martinez and Lee jerseys flying off the shelves …
Thanks Pete! I appreciate it.
tk76,
and for 2011, 2012, etc….if the prospects we kept reach the potential our front office thinks they have, giving us a solid core of young players that don’t cost very much which frees up money and allows us to spend it to fill the fewer holes we have.
No way we get Halladay too, but just stop and think about it for a minute. I can’t imagine us even talking about the Phils possibly dealing their top 3 prospects for Halladay after just dealing prospects 4-7 for Lee. Heck, sometimes I find it hard to believe that we actually had 7 top prospects in the first place. The farm system sure has come a long way.
For laughs, who were the Phils top 7 prospects 15-20 years ago? Guys like Kevin Stocker?
BTW, here is a quick list of recent Phillies top minor league prospects:
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2000 Pat Burrell,
2001 Jimmy Rollins,
2002 Marlon Byrd
2003 Gavin Floyd
2004 Cole Hamels
2005 Ryan Howard
2006 Cole Hamels
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/features/265168.html
Hah, poor Utley.
Sorry for the funky HTML.
Also, here is the top 20 prospects for the Phils in 2004:
Top 20 Prospects, Pre-Season 2004
Cole Hamels
Gavin Floyd
Elizardo Ramirez
Ryan Madson
Alfredo Simon
Jorge Padilla
Keith Bucktrot
Josh Hancock
Kiel Fisher
Juan Richardson
Dan Gonzalez
Terry Jones
Michael Bourn
Ryan Howard
Seung Lee
Lee Gwaltney
Anderson Machado
Bud Smith
Javon Moran
Jake Blalock
And their depth chart (majors and minors by position) that year.
http://www.angelfire.com/ultra/philadepthchart/index.html (their is a pop-up)
Just trying to look back for some perspective.
Does anyone know who is tied for the league lead with Haren in quality starts with 18? You guessed it: Cliff Lee.
Do the Phils also get to compensatory picks after the 1st round in 2011 when Lee leaves in FA. If that’s the case, then we got Lee + Fransico + 2 compensatory #1′s for Knapp + Marsdon + Carasco + Donald. Sounds even better.
Lee instead of Halladay? While the difference is not as drastic, reminds me of Frank Torre instead of Joe Torre. Ken Brett instead of George Brett. Mike Maddux instead of Greg Maddux. Staff improved with addition of Sigh Young winner, but the indisputable golden arm was there for the taking. Ruben dealt with his heart, clung to top prospects; Gillick just kicked his dog. Prediction: Red Sox will land ‘Doc’ and Phils will die on World Series operating table.
So you are upset they added the “Sigh Young” winner who currently has a 3.14 ERA in the AL and eats up innings? Also, now they can keep a good #3 next year. With Halladay’s big salary Blanton and Meyers both walk without being replaced.
I agree that in a 7 game series its key to have 2 great starters. But when you have the best offense in MLB then having 3-4 pitchers who give you quality starts every night is nearly as good of a winning formula.
Sorry for Myers typo.
Acquiring Halliday would’ve been like Phils getting Pete, Sixers getting Moses, Eagles getting Bergey, Flyers re-getting Bernie.
tk76, The record shows 2 losing records sandwiched around his ’08 Cy Young season. Career 4.01 ERA. Good pitcher, not a great one. Should enjoy Phillies’ slugging support. Just hope he’s not haunted by petunia bed “fly balls” in Playtown Park. And then there’s the massive
media coverage and fan attention/expectations to deal with.
Can someone answer one quick question for me? What is our rotation going to be? Who is the odd man out? I hope it is Moyer if Pedro pitches well, as much as I love Jamie and appreciate what he has done, he gets me sooo nervous out there. Plus two righties and three lefties is better to have.
He had a groin injury in 2007, which took some time to come back from. He had a very good year in 2006. 18-5 with a sub 4.00 era, and finished 4th in the cy young voting. Don’t get me wrong I would have loved Halladay, but Lee is a very good pitcher!
You’d think it depends on who is hot heading into the playoffs.
So top 4 Cy Young in 2 of the last 3 years?
just getting in on the news. if Lee was a rightie, everyone would be calling it the steal of the century. sometimes it just comes down to whether he can pitcxh, righty, lefty; it dont matter. as long as he can get the job done, fine with me.
can’t believe they didnt give up either of the OFers. guess Cleveland was mainly interested in pitchers.
hmm wonder where pedro comes in now.
WELCOME CLIFF LEE!! U’RE A PHILLIE NOW. WORRY LESS ABOUT RUN SUPPORT THAN KEEPING THE FLY BALLS FROM LEAVING THE PARK. WE GOT U.
Checking here and there I found a couple interesting things.
Lee is 12-2 with a 3.18 ERA against the NL in his career.
Also, maybe Ben Francisco can become the right-handed Greg Dobbs.
Take a look at their minor league numbers:
Greg Dobbs (6 seasons—avg/obp/slg/ops) .307/.360/.456/.817
Ben Francisco (7 seasons) .291/.357/.459/.815
and their major league numbers:
Greg Dobbs (6 seasons): .275/.319/.436/.755
Ben Francisco (3 seasons): .260/.331/.433/.764
Also, from an article on the deal by Jayson Stark we find out that Cito Gaston is thinking like some of us here:
“Asked in Seattle whether he felt the Blue Jays dodged a bullet by the Phillies acquiring Lee instead of Halladay, Toronto manager Cito Gaston noted that some of Philadelphia’s top prospects were still available and said with a chuckle, “Yeah, I guess. Who knows? They may come back and get [Halladay], too. That’d be a pretty good staff there, wouldn’t it?”
tk76, Granted, 2 outstanding seasons in 8. The rest of the time he’s Don Carmen or Bruce Ruffin or Randy Wolf – consistently inconsistent (though age 30 is a nice age to level off at a high altitude). Is only batting .063. 2 hits, 12 Ks in 32 ABs. I wonder if he can bunt?
ohhh i forgot: ‘Good bye Halladay! Nice fantasizing bout u. Now get outta here.’
finally some closure. all this speculation is so unnerving.
bski: something bout Charlie Manuel turns these semi no-names into good pinch-hitters. seems he knows how to use ‘em. Dobbs, Dellucci, Stairs, even Branyan did a lil damage in his short stint. they’re all lefties though.
error: correct term is actually utility players.
Yeah, jkay. Gillick brought in a bunch of guys who, from a production standpoint, were middling players. Seems like they were, almost to a man, good character guys though, and Manuel has shown that he knows how to get the most from them. The sum certainly is greater than the collection of the parts, IMO. Also, this groups seems to just absorb others into the fabric of the team without disrupting the chemistry. Burrell left and Ibanez stepped in seamlessly. Chan Ho Park appears to have finally settled in as well, his fit of pique over being removed from the rotation causing minimal waves.
I expect the same thing to happen with Lee, who is already saying the right things about the trade and coming to Philly (from the same Jayson Stark article I mentioned in #42):
“Obviously the Phillies are the defending world champions, they’re a good team and they’re in first place,” Lee, sitting in the Indians’ clubhouse in Anaheim, Calif., said hours before the deal reached fruition. “Honestly, it’s an honor and I look at it as a good thing. If other teams are wanting me and are willing to trade some of their key players and future players for me, it’s a compliment.”
More from the Cleveland Plain Dealer, where the anguish is pouring out in each article: Only in Cleveland
Dec ’67: A nearly-spent, 35 yr. old Jim Bunning (314 and 302 innings in ’66, ’67) to Pirates for Woody Fryman (solid #3/4), Don Money (Rolen light), Bill Laxton (marginal lefty) & Harold Clem (didn’t make show).
While not neatly analagous, while thinking on today’s 2 for 4
transaction, the aforementioned sprang to mind. 2 beloved #1 hurlers for clusters of relative unknowns. Despairing Cleveland fans have to be patient. Phils got value in Fryman & Money for the Senator-to-be. Ya
never know with minor leaguers, one or two may blossom, bear all-star fruit for future Indians club; others likely to be serviceable. Am surprised Ruben got the added bat though.
Lee v.s Lincecum– a possibility this Saturday. Can anyone say CLIFFhanger?
Rob: as opposed to Moyer vs. Lincecum (David vs. Goliath, Road Runner meets theComcast Turtle, Crafty-Cunning meeets overpowering) Those two couldnt be more different. Laughed out loud when i thought of it.
Good for you for keeping your promise.