Hat tip to regular reader Ed. R. for pointing this out to me while I was in a 2-hour meeting.
Three team trade between the Sixers, Celtics and Kings:
Sources told ESPN.com that the Philadelphia 76ers and Sacramento Kings, in considering the feasibility of a Samuel Dalembert-for-Kenny Thomas swap, have discussed expanding that concept with Boston by trying to draw in the Celtics on a potential three-way deal that would land Andres Nocioni with the Celts.
Sources further stressed over the past 48 hours that this should be classified as an ongoing conversation as the teams involved decide how much they like what’s on the table.
But the full deal as it stands, if it eventually gets that far, would send Nocioni to Boston, Kenny Thomas, Tony Allen and Brian Scalabrine to Philadelphia and Dalembert and J.R. Giddens to Sacramento. ~ Mark Stein
Tom Moore as already refuted this rumor.
So as always it’s a matter of who you believe and those “anonymous sources.”
What do you think of that?
Kenny Thomas coming back to Philly is just hilarious. But his contract is expiring as well as Allen’s and Scalabrine’s.
My point all along with Sam was if you can get rid of him and recoup 100% of the cap space early I would do that deal. If we are taking back an equally as bad contract we might as well just keep him and let him expire when his deal is up and recoup the money then.
I have been reserved to the fact that it’s an impossibility that we could actually get a valuable player in exchange for Sam. So it’s all about ridding ourselves of his salary.
This rumored deal would accomplish that perfectly.
Understand this though, we don’t get a ton of cap space at all and even less if the cap goes down next season since we are already over the cap as it is. This deal would however really loosen the noose around the Sixers finances.
To give you an idea what I mean, the cap this year is $57.7M. If this deal were to go through the Sixers would be around $53M going into next season with 9 players under contract and expectation of a first round draft choice coming in.
I also saw this:
Charlotte had offer to trade Raja Bell and Vladimir Radmanovich to Philly for Sam Dalembert, but chose Stephen Jackson deal, source tells Y! ~ Adrian Wojnarowski
Meaning Ed Stefanski is working his ass off to get Sammy out of here. Obviously once Stephen Jackson came into play that was the smarter choice for Charlotte.
Let me ask these quesitons:
- Does trading Sam mean this season is already a wash? No matter what trade you make with Sam chances are we are getting much worse defensively and on the boards.
- Does trading Sam help us immediately in the above scenario?
- Would Stefanski still do this deal now knowing Speights is out 6-8 weeks and no telling how he will respond when he comes back?
- If this deal does get done, is it only the beginning? Is a complete roster blow-up on tap? Is Brand next to go? Lou? Iguodala? Setting the wheels in motion to really go after someone big this summer.
Have at it!
{ 63 comments… read them below or add one }
Like you, I would only make this trade if you can get back that money in expiring contracts. Which, the rumor above would have achieved. As for this season being a wash, personally I think it is. I just don’t think Eddie Jordan is the right coach for the players on the team. His system and style of coaching is not going to work. Since you can’t replace an entire team the coach has to be the guy to go. I very much doubt Ed Stefanski is going to axe his guy this season but I wish he would. Byron Scott would be an ideal hire and what do you know, now he is available.
If the Sixers could some how free up the 12 mil on Sam’s contract than maybe they can target a free agent to come in here and add to the pieces already on the team. Clearly 12 mil won’t land a Wade, Bosh or Lebron and that’s fine but there are tertiary guys out there that can have an impact. The pieces are here. They may not be all great but working as a unit they can be good. Great? No. Win a division? Not while the Big 3 are still in Boston but get to the playoffs and hopefully go past the first round.
Boston – If this deal were to somehow go through, Boston is a big winner (for this season only, at least). Getting Nocioni would really bolster their bench and make them an even scarier team. Right now they are pretty thin on the bench, even with Shelden William’s solid and surprising play. But Nocioni, a guy that can play SF/PF, has the bucket and pale type workhorse personality, is scrappy and grabs rebounds, plays defense, and a good scorer…man. He’s always been a non-ideal starter, but to have Nocioni off the bench with Sheed Wallace, Marquis Daniels, Big Baby and Sheldon…that really sounds things out for them.
Trading Sam – So…we are basically trading Sam…so that we can have a future lineup of:
SF: Iguodala
PF: Brand
C: Speights
…so that Speights will be able to get 32-34+ mpg while still being able to play Brand his 35+ minutes a game that he deserves. Um, right? For this season if Sam is gone I’m assuming theyd go:
SF: Iguodala
PF: Brand
C: J Smith
or…
SF: Iguodala
PF: Thad Young
C: Brand (yikes)
If this trade does go through: I really, really, REALLY hope that we do not give much, if any, time to Tony Allen and Brian Scalabrine. Tony Allen is actually an excellent defender, and I think has potential to be in the All NBA second or third team defense stratosphere if he ever got his head on straight…but his offensive game is just a joke to watch. Crap shot selection, lots of turnovers on drives, passes out of traffic crappy.
Although I will say with Speights gone, I kind of like a one year rental of Kenny Thomas. He will provide some Reggie Evans type toughness and rebounding that we’ve been lacking. I’m sure he’s got some juice left and probably has a chip on his shoulder after watching the Kings not play him two years straight so the youngin’s can get some minutes.
Kings viewpoint – It’s certainly a logical question to ask why they actually want Sammy. My view is that it’s a move to open up minutes at their SF spot to give some minutes to Omri Casspi, and possibly Donte Greene as well. Or a three guard lineup of Udrih / Tyreke / K Martin. Nocioni just has no purpose on that team; he’s stealing minutes from their young guys, has already apparently grown frustrated with the team and is not providing the vet leadership they hoped. He’s a guy a contending team would want, not an up and comer.
Sammy would give them a year and a half rental of a solid defensive center, giving them a three headed PF/C monster of Jason Thompson, Spencer Hawes and Sammy D. Gives them insurance if Hawes gets reinjured, and certainly bolsters their interior defense. They will not feel obligated to play Sam huge minutes or start him, so that’s actually a fit that kind of makes sense.
personally i would love a Brand rumor much more but the fact that he is really trying to do something is reassuring. at least he’s not as stubborn or illusioned as Billy King.
well seems Sammy love is out there. he’s worth something then.
the hole at Center would be significant and our defense gets much worse but then like we said earlier; how much worse can this team really get? we suck as it is now, might as well right?
Greek? your comments…
Anyone else remember when Kenny Thomas hit that bank in three to send the Knicks game into overtime… where we eveventually won?
lol.
I like the idea of dealing Sammy to loosen the cap space, but unless we are going to be able to sign another center next offseason, then I don’t see the point. I don’t like Speights starting at center, nor do I Smith or Brand.
Key point- even if we send Sammy away the team will still only have the MLE this summer.
Dumping Sam’s salary 1 year early will save Comcast some cash, but won’t likely turn into any roster additions. I guess it will give them “breathing room” away from the tax, but that does not mean they will actually add any talent.
Now if they wait one year Sam will be a huge expiring- and actually have trade value. But I’d expect Comcast would rather have his contract expire (this year through trade or next year) and just use the cash to offset their losses at the gate.
Definition of a messed up franchise:
year 1: Add vet PF for 80M
year 2: Let starting PG walk for nothing with no replacement
year 3: Unload starting C for nothing without a replacement
This only makes sense if they are making moves to offset the cash they lost on Brand. It makes zero basketball sense. You either add vets and try and win, or dump salary/vets and rebuild. You can’t do both and expect to go anywhere other than basketball purgatory.
Jkay, if you google trade Sammy D for a box of crap my name will come up, for real.
We aren’t going anywhere this season with or without Sammy. We need to trim the fat in any which way that we can. Will we get worse without Sammy this season? Probably but who gives a shit when the end result with Sammy is 38-40 wins. Willie Greene is another guy that I can’t stand watching anymore, that guy offers nothing except being a solid citizen. Would I mind if Willie Greene was dating my sister? No. But playing 15 or more minutes a night is a nightmare.
We should also trade Lou while his value is much higher then it was at any point last season.
I’d do this deal all day long. You are dumping salary, and steering towards a top 10 draft pick. With luck, you could end up drafting that franchise changing player.
If this rumor is true that would be great! I get the feeling that Sefanski won’t trade Brand yet. His value is low now and I think he might get better by the trade deadline and be worth more. A couple of other questions to consider… Would trading Sam and not having Speights leave a hole at C that would make this team worse enough to get into the lottery? IF we made this move and were able to dump Brand’s salary would that give us enough money to offer a max contract this offseason? If we traded Sam I would almost throw in Thad into a deal just to get rid of Brand if it meant we had a chance at LeBron/Wade/Bosh.
TK76 – I’d add to your #1 definitions of a messed up franchise: ”…and then keeping said $80 million PF on the bench, killing his confidence when he’s trying to return to some half decent shell of his former self, when you don’t even have another big man more deserving of minutes.”
Greek – Your finest hour has arrived…an actual Sammy Dlembert rumor that involves actual teams and players! (disregarding the fact that it might not be true). This is a fine day for you, and I hope you enjoy it. You also mentioned something I think is spot on: keep an eye out for Lou Williams suitors while his stock is slowly growing a bit. I’d trade him in a heartbeat for any semblance of future, legitimate talent…especially young talent. I’d more more then happy throwing Ty Laws…I mean Holiday… in the fire to split time with Ivey at PG for this season.
Dave you hit the nail on the head, reading that article with a large starbucks coffee was a pure awesome. I damn near had tears of joy running down my face. Let’s see what happens, I don’t expect Sammy to be traded but a mans wish is a mans wish. Also as I promised last season, if and when Sammy gets traded I will drive him to the airport or straight to the other city if need be. I’m sure going cross country with Sammy would require a stop over at Wally World where I would have to buy him cotton candy and possibly a stuffed teddy bear but hey thats the kind of fan that I am.
Blow it up! Trade Sammy! When I opened the page and saw that at the top I got positively giddy. Move his goofy ass to NorCal and get on with business.
Rotoworld.com is saying Monta Ellis is about to hit the trading block. He can score alot and his contract is the same length (11 mil per though) as Iggys. Would probably have to take Turiaf too.
I guess its a pipe-dream to think they would take Brand.
Hopefully, this will come to fruition, It’s best for both parties. While Sam is physically gifted he just never progressed the way he should have. Whose fault, that’s a subject for debate. I expect time will tell us the answer . It’s going to be interesting to see how he does somewhere else. He’ll have to play well in order to get minutes, because he has 2 high draft picks playing in front of him. I expect our defense will suffer once he’s gone, and all these guys who want us to get a high lottery pick will, probably, get their wish. Obviously the Kings/Jeff Petrie see something in Sam that makes them willing to take a chance and spend a lot of money, so we’ll see.
Bubbachuck, I!d love to have Turiaf here, a J.Smith/Turiaf tandem works for me at the 5 spot. In a basketball sense our new coach would love this deal. J.Smith and Thomas are both above average passers and he finally gets his high post center to run the offense through, and he doesn!t seem to care about the other end of the court anyway. If this trade moves us up in the draft, I am all for it and that ,to me, is more important than putting money in comcasts pocket.
bball: ‘Would trading Sam and not having Speights leave a hole at C that would make this team worse enough to get into the lottery?’ —- you echo my thoughts clearly. if thats what Ed is attempting to do, kudos he’s smarter than I think. nothing worse than wallowing in medicrity forever.
Ellis is already up for trade? there’s gonna be a lot of interest there. pity his contract is soo scary. he’s just the kinda guy we need at the 2 guard spot. not sure GS wants Iguodala, Portland maybe. still the price……..
Why do ppl want Monta Ellis?
He clearly is a little punk and a cry baby. And I MIGHT be okay with putting up with that if he was significantly better than Iguodala but his production doesn’t suggest that.
Hell is eFG% on jump shots was actually worse than Iguodala’s last season.
Dannie, if I get M.Ellis it is to put him with Iggy. Ellis/Iggy or Iggy/Thad, what would you rather have, if it is doable? [Thad,L.Will.,Willie ?]
Until further notice my stance is I take Iguodala over Thad all day. AND I think Iguodala would be a MUCH better player in a lesser role.
Ed should be calling the Hornets each and every day and ask about Paul. That guy will surely get traded Garnett styl at some point.
Monte Ellis would literally be the WORST possible acquisition of a player that has genuine talent for this Sixers team. Our single biggest problem for about three years running now is that we’ve had very talented players on the wings that are athletic slashers who don’t know how to shoot. Monte Ellis is the DEFINITION of an athletic slasher that has a terrible outside shot. Putting M Ellis at SG along with Iguodala…you’re talking brick city from the outside. Combine that with Lou hoisting up bricked 3’s…not going to be a pretty sight.
Suede – Can’t help but pipe in on your question…to me, when it comes to SG/SF’s who often can be interchangeable…you almost always want one of the two that can be a lights out shooter, or at least possessing a good stroke from midrange and outside…and the other to be a guy that can take it to the rack with wreckless abandon. Thad / Iggy is to me a better bet because Thad at least has an ever improving midrange and 3 point shot, which compliments Iguodala’s slashing and ability to get to the FT line, as well as distribute the ball, nicely. If Thad can up his 3 point shot this year to around 37-38%, I like him and Iguodala together.
Ellis is certainly talented and has a knack for scoring in the D-Wade kind of way where he can get a lot of points in the paint from attacking the basket and being creative, which is a plus. He would also allow Iguodala to move to his more natural SF position. But…an undersized SG that can’t shoot and a slightly undersized SF that also can’t shoot…defenses would pack it in even more than they already do. Ellis, IMO, would fit great as a scoring PG next to someone like a Joe Johnson, J-Richardson, Ray Allen, Michael Redd, Kevin Martin type who are all lights out from the perimeter.
DaveT., I was just looking for a very talented scorer to put with Iggy, Ellis!s numbers [19, 5, 5] are pretty impressive for a 24 year old and he may, when all is said and done, be as good a shooter as Thad. Risky to give up Thad? Yes, but a lineup of Sam/Elton/Iggy/Montae/Jrue works for me.
Dannie, do you think Elton getting time at the 5 with the 2nd unit had as much to do with the Sammy rumours as him getting a demotion, Maybe Jordan, your favorite coach, wanted him to get used to the position.
Greek – I’m going to be masochistic and tease myself by realistically looking at your Chris Paul to team X = KG to Boston scenario. If we were to ever land Chris Paul, who has always been the player I would pick first to build any NBA team around (I’d take him before Kobe, LeBron, D-Wade and Dwight without even blinking), I would be the happiest man on the planet. I agree with you that it looks like things are headed in the KG on Minnesota direction with CP3…but that talk will probably come in the 2010-2011 season. Which helps us, since we would have lots of expiring contracts then.
To look at it logistically, they’d be looking for a package that would include expiring contracts equivalent to Paul’s contract, along with young, talented players ready to blossom. We could offer up some combo of Dalembert + Kapono + Green as expiring contracts equaling roughly $18 million dollars, and throw in Thad Young, Speights and/or Jrue Holiday as the young talent pieces. Giving up both T Young AND Speights would hurt, but just about anything is worthy of landing a top 5 NBA player in his prime (and along with whatever crap role players they’d give us to make salaries work).
In all seriousness, and I’m doing my best to be somewhat objective here…if you are the Hornets and CP3 needs to go, I actually think I’d take the following offer pretty seriously:
-Acquiring $18-19 million of expiring contracts that come off the books.
-Thad Young, Mareese Speights, Jrue Holiday.
Chris Paul & Andre Iguodala is a team I’d be happy to build around. *putting crack rocks down* Dreaming of things that will never ever happen can sometimes get you by the days when you have a mediocre and frustrating team to root for.
Hmm…looks like Chris Paul next year makes about $15 million…so it would be Dalembert & Kapono for expiring contracts to equal his salary, W Green would unfortunately not be necessary. My god why am I even entertaining this discussion?
OR…if people felt that left our cupbard too bare…we could offer draft picks and keep one of Speights or Thad, preferably Speights.
Hornets get:
-$19 millions in expiring deals (Sammy + Kapono)
-Thad Young
-Jrue Holiday
-Draft picks
Sixers get:
-Chris Paul
-Throw in to make salaries work
Leaving us with Chris Paul, Iguodala, and Speights as our core. I honestly think this is realistic, given a scenario where the Hornets see the writing on the wall and needed to trade CP3. Greek what do you think of that?
Stop with the Chris Paul talk. And the KG comparisons don’t make one bit of sense. KG was 31 when traded not 24. The Hornets will try to trade their entire roster for cap space before they think about giving Paul away.
Trading Thad is not as big a risk as people make it out to be, seriously.
Suede – No, I think Eddie Jordan is a moron – period.
If he wanted to play Brand at the five he would have done it. And if Sam is on the way out why not just bench him and have Brand run with the first team as the center.
Dannie – You don’t see it a distinct possibility that Chris Paul might try to maneuver his way out of New Orleans, a team going absolutely no where, that has a 3rd or 4th option (David West) as it’s 2nd option…aging wings with crappy contracts…and NO scoring help to speak of? I think it’s pretty realistic that in 2011 or 2012 he might not be in NO anymore unless a miracle happens.
And IN that scenario…IF it were to occur…logistically, don’t you think we’d be in a surprisingly good place to offer up expiring contracts and young talent?
Dave T/anyone – Your deal doesn’t make sense and underestimates Paul as one of the 5 best players in the NBA. It also is short sighted.
The Hornets were in better position than the Sixers BEFORE the Emeka Okafor trade and still are by default since they have Paul.
In the Summer of 2011 the only players under contract would have been Paul, James Posey, Darren Collison’s team option and David West’s player option.
They would be in position to go after anyone they wanted via free agency or trade.
Even after the Emeka deal they are scheduled to be around $43M which will be quite a few million under the cap in the summer of 2011.
Do you really think they would give Chris Paul away for any of the junk the Sixers could offer and cap space?
All these trades are critically flawed.
You acquire cap space for two reasons:
Well the Hornets already have #1. So any deal would be in pursuit of point two. Trading Paul and gaining cap space would only be setting them to ground zero where they need another elite player to replace Paul and build around and that is far too risky since what star would want to go to the New Orleans and their small market and lack of finances with Paul not there to play with?
Come on guys, give me a break with the Chris Paul pipe dreams. On top of that all the elite players are on the market this summer not the summer of 2011.
Suede – No, I don’t see it as a distinct possibility even a little bit unless Isiah Thomas or Chris Wallace was their GM.
I explained in enough detail in the comment above why.
And while pretending to be Sixers GM two years from now, I might as well make my 2010 draft choice known:
Oklahoma St. - 6′4 SG – Lights out scorer and 3 point shooter – James Anderson, welcome to our disfunctional Sixers. Unless we somehow can land Cole Aldrich by a miracle.
It all goes back to the Summer of ‘08. Remember Ed brought in Josh Smith, then turned around and signed Elton, knowing it would get the bigger headline. Well, it did, but didn’t produce the better team.
I don’t think Elton would have been the bigger headline. Josh Smith probably would have been the bigger headline because he was younger and fit the style the Sixers wanted to play better.
Elton was such a big headline because it kind of came out of nowhere in the middle of the night.
I liked the Brand signing but I was under the impression he could actually still play.
Had I known physically and athletically he was done I would have been much more for signing Smith.
AND had I known Smith would start to play basketball the way he should I would have been much more in favor of him. He has not taken 1 three point shot so far this season and is shooting 58% from the field. He is averaging 4 dimes per game, 2.5 blocks and 9 boards.
He is playing basketball so well and is the reason Atlanta is 9-2 and looks like a legit contender in the East.
I honestly would rather just wait until Sammy’s contract expires. I think it would be better to relieve ourselves of cap room after a below average season… instead of an absolutely mediocre season. We’d be giving up on this year if we get rid of Sammy now. Like him or not, we don’t have anyone else to replace him. I say, take our shot at making the playoffs this year and using that little bit of hope (along with a young core) to try and attract a free agent. To do that obviously we need to make some more moves to clear up cap room. *Cough* Elton Brand.
Dannie, It goes back to that post you had about building a Championship calibur team. We need to sit down and look at what we have and what we need. Anyone not a part of the PLAN that Ed was talking about when he first became a GM, needs to go. But we can’t just rush into it like we are inches away from competing. That was our biggest mistake. We thought we needed one more player (Elton Brand), but in reality we needed a lot more than that.
Dave to be honest with you, if we can get paul then I could care less what the package is. As long as we get him then its a good deal. As you said it’s a pipe dream of ours, but were allowed to dream right? But I do believe that he will ask out of there real soon for many of the reasons that you stated.
blow the entire fucking team apart. iggy has shown his potential in the NBA, to be a highlight reel and not really know what to do with the basketball at all. Brand looks like he has the same vertical leap as shaq at this point in his career, and should be dumped as well (even though thats impossible). I wouldn’t mind keeping Lou if that means in the near future he is either moved to the 2 or goes back to the bench. his defense is abysmal. dalembert is a huge pussy and looks like he’s about to cry whenever something he doesn’t like happens on the basketball court.
Dannie-
I don’t know why you like Iggy over Thad, Thad looks like he could actually develop a shot and play alright at the SF position in the future. I just don’t think Iggy is going to develop anymore as a basketball player; we’ve been watching him for how many years now?? I swear the only difference 5 years ago to now is that he’s stronger. Still can’t shoot, still can’t really dribble well enough to play the 2 or 3, and is prone to turnovers that lead to easy buckets.
The Sixers will never win with him in the lineup unless he goes back to being the third or fourth option. The only way Iggy will ever be good in the Sixers lineup is if we have a PG that can make plays for him ( TY LAWSON ) or have scorers/shooters around him that allows him to roam free in the offense and not have the ball in his hands. At all
On the contrary, I don’t think Thad will ever be a good dribbler unless he loses his awkwardness, but he shows more potential shooting the ball than Iggy ever has in his career. Thad has a higher ceiling, and with the way the Sixers season is looking as of now, it’s time to see how high that ceiling can get over the next two years.
At the risk of sounding cocky, going back to 2 years ago, the main concern I raised was what happens if Brand or Smith does not fit (I had no clue he would actually struggle to recover)? In Brand’s case you have an overpaid older player and are stuck. In Smith’s case you might still have an overpaid player, but with insane athletic traits and just entering his prime. So assuming Smith did not fit you could always move young, talented players for value (trade either Smith or Iguodala.)
Honestly, not sure what Ed was thinking. He must have been extremely confident that Brand was going to be the perfect fit. Because guys over 30 making 15M+ per year are not easily moved- even if they are still good players.
TK76 – I agree. But I actually do think guys over 30 who are still good aren’t hard to move.
If Brand was still good right now there would be takers for him. If not right now, then come next year when so many teams swing and wiff on the big free agents.
The problem of course is that he isn’t good. If he was putting up say 17/18 and 10 boards and a block and half shooting 49% from the field I am pretty sure Stefanski would have no problem moving him if he wanted to.
And given since Brand has the perception of being a team player and a good dude that would also help the cause. For example he could be moved to a contender and come off the bench without crying unlike our man AI.
But again I just wish I knew how the physicals went. What the doctors said.
Now that I think about it in hindsight, the way the deal went down (secretly and under reported) and how the Clippers were completely blindsided by it could the Sixers have really done their full due diligence?
Adam – Right now Thad completely a one dimensional player.
He can not dribble with his right hand at all, and his handle with his left hand is still awkward and unreliable. Iguodala has a significantly handle than Thad right now, that’s a fact.
Thad is a weak passer with no court vision.
Thad is a below average three point shooter just like Iguodala. Until proven otherwise I don’t see a reason to feel all that confident he will improve significantly in this area.
With all the athleticism Thad has he doesn’t use his body well going to the basket. He looks to avoid contact and doesn’t get to the foul line in proportion to his shot attempts or athletic ability.
Thad is not even a little bit close to being the defender Iguodala is and I doubt he ever will.
Iguodala is a better rebounder.
The only thing Thad does well is not turn the ball over and this season that has increased to 2.4 vs. Iguodala’s 2.6 per 36 minutes.
I don’t buy Thad’s ceiling being as high as most people think. Right now he isn’t as good as Dala and his ceiling to me might only be Iguodala’s level when it’s all said and done.
My biggest issue is they are just two similar in style and if they commit to Thad long-term while keep Iguodala that would be a mistake. Trade one or both is a better option than keeping both at a high price point. I don’t mind keeping both as long as one of them is coming off the bench on a good team.
Oh and as most people on this site know I am actually NOT a big Iguodala fan at all.
Dannie, IF Stefanski did his due diligence, then he acted upon what is referred to as “magical thinking” - long shot bet on “the happy ending”, in contrast to reliance on facts and warning statements of the majority of achilles tendon injury case histories as it pertains to maximum function recovery and basketball performance. That particular decision (reflex?) of his still astounds.
AI is an American original, like Richard Pryor. He’s still a viable player; I want him on the NBA stage. Hope some team chooses to accomodate him and his trying,
unbudging predilections; I’ll be a fan. Today’s NBA consists of too many “yawn” players and 20 “yawn” teams.
Elton Brand: a derivitive, stat-achieving 6′7″ forward who parlayed his Duke pedigree/national profile and inferior NBA teams placement into riches and expectations which he can’t meet. No genius or sizzle to his game – ever. Highly competent in former days but never a “jump on my back” player for the long haul.
Dannie, you are probably right. If Brand was still a stud PF there are contending teams (like the Cavs) who would trade for him regardless of his long contract.
I have a question. If we are really stuck with EJ for a few years what type of players would actually fit in his P.O. gimmick? Looking back at previous P.O. teams and looking for the players that thrived… CWebb, Miller, Bibby, Kidd, Arenas, Butler, Jamison and maybe you throw in CP3?
Most of those players would have thrived in any offense. Few Sixers share traits of those players (esp the front court players.) If ES was really going to start blowing things up to try and bring in guards with range and passing bigs, who would be left on the roster?
My guess is Speights and Smith (can shoot and maybe pass), and Thad if he could play PF (a proposition that I deeply hate.) I would think the slasher/isolation or low post low IQ players would all have to go. That means getting rid of Iguodala, Brand, Lou, Sam and Thad(if he is viewed as a SF.)
That would be a huge roster turn over to get rid of the square pegs in E.J.’ gimmicky P.O. scheme…. Hard to fathom ES was thinking this way when he signed EJ, especially considering their long term contracts. So did EJ just fool ES into thinking the current roster works in the PO or are they all just clueless?
One BIG advantage Thad has over Iguodala: a smaller head, a better perspective on his place in the scheme. Translation: more potential for learning and growth, especially when considering respective ages. Better team guy. Doesn’t force things as much on court. Flip side of that: more sporadic dynamism, less leading.
Clarification: Young better team guy in humility/interactive sense. Certainly, his court passing grades out at ‘D’ at present.
Adam – The keeping one of Iggy vs. Thad question is an interesting one that seems to keep popping up on here. I think they both have strengths and weaknesses.
Iguodala:
-The good: Very good defense (when applies himself), strong handle (Adam I have to say, I think you are underselling his dribbling ability…the guy can play point-forward at times if need be), great first step, great slasher/attacking the rim, “good passer” in the sense that he has great court vision and sees things well. Great athleticism, very good in the open court. Has improved a bit as a leader over the years. Ideal role: 3rd option on championship caliber team, the versatile guy that “does a little bit of everything”, can chip in 17-18 ppg, make passes, rebound, play D.
Weaknesses: terrible in the post, makes bad decisions in traffic, sometimes rushes or mis-times his passes, turnover prone, takes WAY too many fadeaways, turnaround jumpshots, and 3 pointers, not a good shooter, most likely never will be. Tends to lose focus on defense.
Thad Young:
Strengths – A true Hybrid SF/PF that can legitimately step in to play a solid PF on offense, a rarity in the NBA. Very good midrange jumpshot. Good three point shot that is ever improving. Strong post play on the mid-block area; makes strong, quick decisions with his back to the basket. Knows how to finish around the basket and can hit those “bunnies”. Usually has good shot selection, and has a nice sense of when to score vs. when to hold back. Average defender, but has shown improvement. Extremely coachable and dedicated to really improving his game each year. A willing passer and good teammate. Tends to set strong, fundamentally sound picks. Potential, IMO: 3rd option on offense, a true SF that will eventually get a line of 20 ppg, 6-7 rbs, 40% from 3 point.
Weaknesses – Crappy handle. Not the greatest slasher in the world, not the fastest first step in one on one plays. ”Floats” on offense too much, and can over-defer to his teammates. Questionable whether he can truly handle guarding top flight NBA SF’s. Really needs to improve moving without the ball and weakside cutting. Inconsistency from game to game. Needs to attack the basket more aggressively.
It sounds like from philly.com that Carney is going to take Brand’s place in the lineup, it would be:
Sam – Thad – Iguodala – Carney – Lou
And I like it. Good move by coach EJ if he does it. For some reason, we win more when you have the Thad-Iggy tandem at PF and SF. One indicator of how that lineup might do comes from 82games.com’s 5-man units data from the 07-08 season – the lineup of:
Jason Smith – Thad – Iguodala – Carney – Lou
…was our best defensive lineup and our 2nd best offensive lineup. Replace Jason Smith with Dalembert and I think that lineup becomes even more potent devensively (btw, there’s no data on tonight’s potential starting lineup, it’s incredible that Sam, Thad, Iguodala, Carney and Lou were never on the floor at the same time).
Also, by moving a swingman from the bench to the starting lineup, you give more playing time to the remaining bench swingmen: Kapono, Green, Ivey, Holiday. Assuming Kapono gets his regular minutes, that’s more time for Green, Ivey, and Holiday, and that gives me hope that Jrue Holiday will get more playing time.
And I agree with a previous commenter – the PO has a much better chance of working with Jason Smith and Brand, and I’d add that with the more blue-collar, fundamentally sound, and less talented games of Jason Smith, Kapono, Willie Green, Royal Ivey, and Jrue Holiday, the PO has an even better shot. Plus, the PO gets shoved aside from the main attraction to coach EJ’s ongoing PO experiment on the side with the bench; to sum, with our starters, it’s defend and run, a la 07-08, and when the bench gets in there coach EJ can mess around with his PO. Sounds good to me.
One last note – I think Speights being out will be a blessing for the Sixers in the win column; I bet they’ll be an above .500 team while he’s out. Teams will go on those killer runs much less often and games will be a lot closer, giving us a chance to win more. We’ll start blowing out those bad/mediocre teams with points off turnovers.
Zack, I question the reliabilty of 5-man unit data. What kind of time span of togetherness qualifies a “unit”? Are minimal numbers extrapolated? At what point in the game were the units functioning? Did the combinations exist in winning or losing efforts? Was opponent resistance standard for all measured units? Spread sheets spread some truths, miss others.
Zak, I disagree with using Thad at PF. They may be more competetive right now with that line-up, but long term they must earn if running Iguodala/Young at SG/SF will work, and a 10 game trial to start this and last year is not enough to abandon the pairing.
Right now Young is learning to be a SF. This and his 1 year at GT are the only times he’s played SF. He played PF in HS and most of his NBA minutes are at PF. But I strongly feel Young’s future is at SF.
Young’s upside as a PF is marginal. He will never be a good rebounder or defender at PF, and I don’t see an elite NBA team with Thad at PF, I see a poor man’s Jamison who is better on the break.
We don’t know if Young will be a great SF or not. He’s just learning to play on the wing, and possibly he’ll never gain the fluidity or defensive instincts to be a great wing player… or maybe he will.
But this year should not be about trying to steal a couple of wins by putting Young and Iguodala in their previous comfort zones on the floor. This year should be about learning what they have and whether the pieces fit long term. They could have a future dynamic wing combo with Iguodala and Young, or it could be a dud and one will have to go.
Maybe you have already decided that pairing won’t work… but I think it can, or at least needs more than a couple of weeks to discard.
Zack, did not mean to misspell you name
For the sake of the argument I would say Thad would never be as good at the 3 spot as Iguodala is, even though he will end up a much more productive and efficient scorer.
they may complement each other sometimes but the fact that Iguodala cant shoot the 3 leaves Thad drawn outside way too much. I think his game is naturally meant for the inside and post play, even though he lacks strength. Thad has no handles which means he has less efficiency when he’s further away from the basket.
optimally a small PF . but they are just different thats all.
Thad is tradeable for 1 very important reason above all; he doesnt have an $80 mill contract.
i think Iguodala would do much better in a less expectant role.
re-signing Thad Young = another mistake waiting to happen.
does anyone want to volunteer how much money you think he will get?
I am probably blindly optimistic… but I see Thad developing into a very good defensive wing player. He has the physical tools and mindset. he just needs to unlearn some of his helping instincts from all of those years spent as a PF. I also think Thad continue to be an efficient scorer, and will be a good spot up 3pt shooter (in the Bowen mold, not a Ray Allen type pure/volume 3pt score.)
I agree that Thad will always be a good weapon in the post. But he’ll be a better post scorer when defended by SF’s he can back down and shoot over than if he plays PF.
The Sixers need to find a scheme that has its SF(Young) scoring in the post (or spotting up for open jumpers.) Their PF and center need to have good jumpers to clear the paint. Smith and Speights fit this mold, and maybe Brand if he gets his game back. They also need a PG who can shoot since Iguodala will always be a slasher/handler more than a shooter.
I guess this could work within the P.O. scheme, but right now the individual players are either not ready or just don’t fully fit that scheme. But I guess in 2 years I could see Jrue as a better shooting PG and Thad very effective at SF and Speights at PF within the P.O. Not sure who plays C. Brand?
Iggy’s got rapid 1st movement (see “Roundrunner” traveling violations), not a great 1st step, which includes superior quickness, wide stride, taking direct angles to basket or shooting spot (see Bernard King or Andrew Toney).
Iguodala has a good handle and strength. Not a great 1st step, but still effective getting past his man. Sort of like Lebron in that regard (just not as good.)
AI2: Getting past man, check (in pencil) … unless man is strong defender, uncheck. Being productive with dribble-acquired space and resultant options, still needs improvement. Act is stale in Philly (6 years of a character actor billed as star); he’s the guy with some value to move if Sixers are willing to face mirror, start fresh. Gotta give to get (if they can find right fit).
Jkay – Time flies…I hadn’t even entertained the idea of how much Thad would ask for. If he continues on his steady improvement, I think it’s reasonable to think that after his 4th year he could be averaging around 17-18 ppg, 6 boards, shooting 38% from 3. Marvin Williams of the Hawks, a guy who is pretty much a 15 & 6 type of player that was also projected to keep improving, struck a deal around the $7.5 million range, off the top of my head. 20 ppg scorers that offer mediocre to excellent stats that are 5+ tend to make $10-12 million…Iguodala and Corey Maggette would be some examples.
I’d say Thad would seek around $10 million per. Sixers would offer $8 or $8.5. They’ll agree to maybe $9?
***Correction/brain fart: Iguodala definitely makes more then $12 per year, unfortunately. If you break it down to per year averages, I think he’s at $13 or 13.5.
Rudy Gay – He’s a guy that I’m very curious to see how much he asks for, and then receives. A few years ago teams might have overpaid him as much as the $11-12 million range, but in today’s NBA economy he would probably get around $10 million per, and may set the barometer for other similar players in the same statistical mold. I think it’s safe to say Thad Young, by year 4, would be one rung on the ladder below Gay as far as production, and right in the $8.5 – 9 million range.
Other players to keep in mind when comparing to Thad’s future salary:
-Danny Granger signed for 5 years, $55 million (far superior player to Thad, although Thad is in his mold as a player a bit).
-Ben Gordon has 5 years for $55 as well, I believe. a similar deal (far superior player, can hoist a team on his back and take over a game).
-Bargnani was 5 years, $50 million (threw him extra money given their projection of where he would be).
-Josh Howard signed 5 years, $9.5 million a year (roughly) a few years back. I’d say with where Thad will hopefully be in another year, this is a pretty accurate comparison.
tk76, I have to be quick here – why do you have to learn if Thad/Iggy at SF/SG will work. Those two at PF/SF work well enough, so why not focus on C, SG and PG? Would you have a problem with Thad as a PF if Dwyane Wade was our SG?
It depends on how Thad develops over the next 2 years. He will be only 23 when he signs, so will likely be seen as having more upside then some of the guys you mentioned who signed their deals at 25-6. And in the NBA people are often overpaid for potential.
I actually think in 2 years Thad will be scoring 20pt/game on 50%+ shooting (probably on a bad Sixer team unfortunately.) So I’m guessing Thad will be (over)paid at 10M+/yr.
Zack, I think you can maybe with with a hybrid PF if you have a superman type center (Shaq or DHoward in their prime.) But you can’t win at a high level with an average C and Thad as your front court. Also, I think Thad is a worse rebounder/defender in the post then other Hybrid 4’s like Jamison and R. Lewis.
Upside for Thad at PF is a mix of Jamison and Warrick. Upside at SF is much higher. I can’t name many Sf’s who shoot over 50% from the field, score 20 ppg and are not in the Hall of Fame. Not saying Thad will end up there, but eventually he can be a borderline all-star (Iguodala level) at SF. Not sure he’s an above average NBA starter at PF now or in the future.
Stefanski is now being interviewed on 950 AM/ 97.5 FM.
jjg, thanks, I just listened to it. What stuck in my mind the most – he’s not trading the “young guys” because the organization is going to develop them and they’re going to get better. That should be the last straw in a year or two – if our young guys still suck, Stef and company (DiLeo, Witte) need to go in a major house-cleaning.
Also, he says he’s talked to other teams about the “young guys”, but he says the fans won’t like what those other teams are willing to trade for them… I’m a horrible negotiator, and I recognize other horrible negotiators, and this Stefanski guy, I don’t think he’s a good negotiator. I think he’s the kind of guy who settles on “even” trades, and even if there was an even trade that he wants to make, he doesn’t have the charisma and skill to cajole the other guy to go through with it, IMO.
I listened to it too and posted the link to it and some thoughts on today’s game thread here.