December 22, 2014

Sixers Trade Samuel Dalembert

The Philadelphia 76ers have agreed to swap Samuel Dalembert to the Sacramento Kings for Andres Nocioni and Spencer Hawes, two league sources told ESPN.com.

The deal was agreed to on Tuesday night and the two teams have been working out details Thursday morning. Barring some last-minute hitch the trade should be completed as early as Thursday afternoon, according to the sources. ~ ESPN

Just caught wind of this.  Need to look into some stuff and think about whether I like this move or not (I don’t think I do – at all).

Major ramifications and thoughts at first glance:

  • Do they like Spencer Hawes that much?
  • Couldn’t we have at least gotten a pick for Sam?
  • Are we drafting Favors now?
  • Are we trading the pick to move down to draft Cousins if they like him better than Favors?
  • Do they believe a front court of Hawes/Brand/Smith/Speights is good enough to win this season if they draft Turner?
  • What about the defense?

More later.

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Comments

  1. RRose says:

    AMEN!  Something for nothing.  Sammy didn’t want to be a Sixer and they weren’t going to resign him.  Having a malcontent with no basketball IQ play out his stay is worse than doing nothing at all.  One young 7 footer with offensive skills and a veteran who brings toughness and appears to know the game is better than Sam any day.  Maybe its a sign of what style Doug wants to play.

    Although Sam provided defensive stops from rebounds and blocks.  He caused more problems with poor attitude, bad hands and low IQ.  This is long overdue.  Hawes does block shots.  Get better on ball defenders to make up for what Sam gave us.   Turner is still the pick

  2. Dannie says:

    RRose - Disagree.  I am glad Sam is gone so ppl can start complaining about no defense inside and wonder why that is all of a sudden.

    Nocioni is a bum that we are now sattle with his contract for TWO years instead of the one more year we had with Sam.

    People will quickly turn on Hawes when they see his “offensive skills” only produce marginally effiicient (closer to inefficient scoring w/a  sub 50% eFG%) from the center position and MUCH weaker defense.

    Can’t wait.

    This trade was cultural, people need not try to convince themselves this makes the Sixers better on the court – it doesn’t.

  3. Chuck says:

    Ya… I mean as much as I hated Dalambert I hate Hawes too. He was overhyped as a high school recruit… he was overhyped and underproduced in college and hasn’t poven anything in the NBA. He plays 0 defense and his offensive skill set is okay but wont get us excited. As far as Nocioni is concerned I actually like him… hes a solid bench player who was just an awful fit for the Kings. I liked him with the baby bulls and I like his attitude. Im scared this mean Favors over Turner though because we don’t have a starting center for this year.

  4. Dannie says:

    We should have gotten a pick in any deal for Sam.  The players we took back are below average at best.

    Nocioni has no place on this team at all.  Does he take minutes from Speights and Thad as a 3/4 man?  If we draft Turner that adds another wing player who he shouldn’t take minutes from.

    From the looks of it we took Nocioni so we can get Hawes.  They like Hawes that much? There is no way we actually wanted Nocioni to help us on the court.

     

  5. Stu says:

    I will submit a comment of my thoughts about the Sixers through my vuvuzuela horn:
    zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

  6. RRose says:

    Sammy wore out his welcome in more ways than one.  Why can’t this team find a player that can play defense and replace some of what Sam gave them.  Its possible.  Sam reached his ceiling and didn’t appear to get better in 8 years.  6’11 athletic center should grab 10 boards a game at that level, starting in the NBA getting 30 minutes a game.  But his poor hands, bad footwork, no go to move and foul prone tendencies went on for far too long.  They need a collection of defensive stoppers not just one.  Cause one (Sammy) didn’t work.

  7. The Greek says:

    RRose, your very wise my friend and I agree completely with everything you said.     Where is Sammy now?  Because my standing offer has always been to drive him to his next destination whenever the beautiful day came that he got traded.
    noncioni is a good player, one who plays hard and cares about his craft.
     
     
     

  8. Morty says:

    I’m with you, Dannie.  I fail to see how this trade improves, and it seems like a poor use of the expiring contract of Dalembert.

  9. The Real Rob says:

    Something tells me there will be another trade to follow the trade.  There are too many SFs in our team.  Nocioni represents the “toughness” aspect that Collins is looking for.  I still hope for Evan Turner, but this is going to be a  weird, wild summer for the Sixers. 

  10. Marcus says:

    Man Sammy D really wasnt that bad. Yall going to see how much we going to miss him i dont really like this trade either cause now that means were probably going to draft favors instead of turner. I hate sixers management so much they have no idea what the hell they doing. I would have rather let Sammy D contract come off the books. Also some of yall might hate to admit this but Sammy D was one of the bright spots on the team last year I know he does some crazy things but the man does what he does and he does it good blocks shots and get rebounds now who do we have to do that as a big ?????? Brand hawes speights the rookiw if we take him. To me this is wishful thinking In my opinion The kings def got the better of the trade. 

  11. Richie says:

    The only way I agree with this is if this is the start of a change in culture and we are just dumping bodies and starting fresh. Now if that was the case then we shouldve just gotten a 2nd round pick or a 2011 first for Sammie I wouldve been ecstatic!

  12. L.A. Steve says:

    Well I’m glad for Sammy, but I’m not so thrilled for us.  I can’t see anyway possible this makes us better defensively.  With Sam we were  always able to play the opposing big with single coverage, now that’s gone.  They’ve wanted him for a long time, and now they got him, I’ll be curious to see what Pete Carril and Paul Westphal can do with him, I expect he’ll play better as a King, I believe they’ll let him participate in the offense more, and give him 30+ mpg, which will go a long way in making him more productive. 

    To tell you the truth, I wasn’t in favor of hiring Doug Collins at all, and this move only reinforces my doubts.  As I sit and watch these NBA Finals, and I look at the suffocating defense played by Boston, I can’t help but wonder what Ed Stefanski was thinking when he passed over Tom Thibodeau twice!   How stupid can he be.  Before Thibodeau came to the Celtics, they played zero deffense,  now they’re the best, and he’s the mastermind  behind it all.  Obviously their success didn’t impress Ed.      
       
    It just seems to me that, regardless of his improvement,  Sam was destined to play rotation minutes, and never get the ball in the post.   Last year he averaged: 9.6 rpg,  8.1 ppg, in 25.9  mpg, that’s production folks. I saw a stat last year entitled rbs per 38 mpg, and he was 4th in the league among guys who play significant minutes.             
         
    So Collins says we’ll be a defensive team and then trades our best defensive player, that doesn’t make a lot of sense.  I can’t see Spencer Hawes being a defensive stopper, that’s for sure!  He’s a poor defender and a poor rebounder, but can knock down an outside shot.  I can’t see him being a starting center on a contending team.  I just hope this trade doesn’t affect the draft, I really want Evan Turner, but now Doug might feel a compunction to take one of the two bigs.   It never stops with this team!   

  13. Marcus says:

    Also lets not forget collins doesnt know what the hell hes doing in looking for talent him amd mj was responsible for making the worst number 1 pick in probably draft history kwame Brown these dudes man …… go with the sure thing evan baby

  14. Morty says:

    LA Steve: It really does make you wonder. And not even the sweetener of a future 1st round pick?

  15. deepsixersuede says:

    Boy, I am shocked at the responses and I am not a Sammy hater in the least;  a 22 year old center that gets 13 pts, 9 reb., 1.5 blocks and 2.5 ass. per 36 min. for a career 11 pt. and 11 reb. center isn!t that one sided to me and Nucioni , unlike Kapono, will defend and mix it up a bit along with a decent shot. Dannie, if we take Turner we will have improved the I.Q. and skill level of this team bigtime at 2 positions on the offensive end. My question is how big a dropoff defensively compared to what we get offensively. 

     A high post center that can pass and hit an occasional 3 will be a welcome addition for Elton to get more operating room on the block. And my biggest surprise with this is Comcast willing to add salary .

  16. Marcus says:

    Tom Moore reports that Evan Turner is still the sixers guy. Espn Said Collins wants favors But stefanski is high on turner. I think we might try to package  iggy with lou/green/thad one of those players.  

  17. Tim says:

    F**K YOU Ed Stefansi! This trade is bad enough, I’ve always stuck up for and given you the benefit of the doubt. Not now not if this means you are drafting favors.
    Dannie have you seen favors draft combine interview??? no offence to favors but he is as thick as two bricksand will never be a franchise player no matter how talented he is!! he will never have a good basketbal IQ no matter how much talent he has. And that’s exactly what this team needs.
    All we need now is peices and we should be grabbing the best peice available (evan turner) this guy is going to be a perenial allstar and a hungry killer!! While if favors pans out we will get 14-10-2 in his prime.
    What do you honestly believe is favors ceiling dannie?
    When i look around the league, all the best big men are articulate and intelligent…. Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Dwight howard, Pau Gasol, Dirk nowitzki, Shaquille…. Derrick favors show’s no semblence of intelligence… nothing against the guy he seems like a great, nice kid.

    Why do you do this to me sixers, shit trades, shit draft picks :(

  18. Dave T says:

    This.  Was not.  A smart.  Trade.


    1.  I agree with Dannie…Im SHOCKED we didnt get some kind of draft pick with this…this year, next year, even a 2nd rounder.  Just shocked.
     
    2.  With an expiring contract, we should have waited until better offers came.  It’s always how it works…you BE PATIENT and as the all star break approaches teams go “Hey, I wouldnt mind taking a defensive center for 3 months and then have $11 expiring cap space!” you see what you can get.
     
    3.  We desperately need toughness, Nocioni gives us some of that.  But you do not do that at the expense of taking away two young forwards playing time. Thad and Speights need all the time they can get.  This cuts into it.
     
    4.  If you want toughness, you could have signed a 1-3 million dollar role player that would play 10 minutes a game.  Not a guy who costs $7 million a year, will expect at least 15-20 mpg if not more, and for a two year contract.
     
    5.  We patiently waited on not trading Dalembert for years…YEARS…and then finally make a knee jerk “Well, they are giving us something, so let’s do it!” decision.  C’mon Ed.
     
    6.  I actually really wanted Sammy to be coached by Collins this year.  I thought Collins would kick his ass and get him some consistency, resulting in Sammy’s stock raising so we could make a better trade later in the year.  We basically traded Sammy when his image in the league was at a low point.
     
    Ugh.  Hawes is a decent prospect, but he’s not a banger, and is much more a finesse guy then a tough dude.  Hawes’ underrated ability: the man knows how to pass and has a good IQ.
     

  19. Dave T says:

    Real Rob – I agree, I think there is another trade coming.  Just makes no sense to have a squadron of Nocioni / Thad / Speights.  At least, that’s what I’m hoping.  Likely Ed is thinking about using either Thad or Speights along with one of our expirings (Kapono?  Willie Green?) for another prospect, likely a defensive C or backup SF.

  20. deepsixersuede says:

    DaveT., I just read on hoopshype that Collins likes Nucioni and on another blog that the Sixers really like Hawes. It will be fun to have the other team have to guard 5 people and Collins talked about getting the most out of Elton; this will add another good passer and he should be better at spacing the floor than Sam. His rebounding and shotblocking are not bad , especially when he would just be entering his senior year.

  21. 2one5 says:

    I see another deal in the works Iggy and an expiring for somebody else. Possibly Al Jefferson I would be super excited about that.
    Thad would be you starting three and Nocioni off the bench for a solid veteran backup at the 3. One thing I like about the deal is both these guys can shoot. I thought we could get more for an expiring Sammy who is still a somewhat productive player not just an expiring deal. But, I am so ready for a facelift for this team please let Willie and Iggy be next to go.

  22. RRose says:

    Larry Brown couldn’t get the best out of Sammy now we hope Collins can do it.  Please.  Who cares if this was a bad deal or great deal he needed to go. There is no reason to believe they would have gotten anyone better at the trade deadline.  And no belief this team is ready to pony up on some large dollar amount player again in free agency. See Brand and is contract.  They will have younger players with much more potential coming into this season.

    This was necessary.  Why saddle a new coach with a headache like Sammy who didn’t want to be on the team anyway.  I really don’t see the downside.  They stunk with him.

  23. Ed R. says:

    This trade had to be about money. Saves 3 mil and now they won’t have to pay the luxury tax. 

    This trade couldn’t be about getting equal value for Sam because if it is then Stefanski is a bigger idiot than I thought him for.
    If this team does not draft Turner it will probably be the last time I tune in to this team for a little while. This team was given a gift in the number 2 pick, if the manage to screw it up with Favors or God forbid Cousins then they deserve whatever they get. I have nothing against Favors, I really don’t but this team needs to build around Turner. He can be their future.

  24. Dannie says:

    For all the ppl saying Hawes and Nocioni are good shooters can you PLEASE provide support for this assertion.

    Hawes is a career 46.6% field goal shooter, 31.4% 3pt shooter, 67% free throw shooter and 48.5% eFG% shooter

    Nocioni is a career 43.3% field goal shooter, 37.5% 3pt shooter, 80% free throw shooter and 49.8% eFG% shooter.

    Andres is a decent 3pt shooter, good free shooter overall he is decent, nothing special.

    Hawes is a scrub to me.  I am sick and tired of people talking about “skills” and not production.  Skills don’t win games, real production does.  Offensively Hawes is soft.  Defensively Hawes is soft.  Offensively for a center Hawes scoring/shooting efficiency sucks.

  25. Dannie says:

    In all honesty I hope the Sixers suck hard again and land a top 5 pick next season.  That’s the only way I see this team improving enough to become relevant (I don’t trust or believe Stefanski can make trades or sign players correctly to improve the team).  So maybe trading the only front court defender will help that.

  26. Phil D says:

    This trade is really meaningless if you think about it.  I agree with Stu from earlier, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. All players involved stink so who cares. Dalembert didnt help the team at all, and neither will these two. Let me wrap up this trade very simply. The Sixers traded a stiff for two more stiffs. Lets focus on the draft and build from there.

  27. deepsixersuede says:

    The more I think about it, the more this trade makes perfect sense;  you are the coach and g.m. of this team and are about to draft the new face of the franchise to go along with your 3 other main pieces [Iggy,Elton and Lou] as far as salary goes. The strength of this player, Turner, like these other pieces is a midrange game, post up game and drive and dish game. You need the 2 other positions, p.g. and center to open up the floor for your big investment to succeed. 

    You decide a high post center is a must and look around the league for the best options and decide Hawes is young and has room to grow. Down the other end of the floor the players Hawes helped offensively will reciprocate by playing good team defense and allow less dribble penetration and allow Hawes to defend his position adequately. Lets not forget Denver improved defensively after Camby left, so it is possible here also. 

    If you ran this team and were drafting Turner, what type of guys would you put around him? Could he succeed with Elton and Sam out there with him?  It isn!t conventional but with Michael and Scotty the bulls needed a p.g. that could shoot more than handle and sort of went about things differently so maybe for Turner and Iggy to blossom than some outside the box thinking is needed also.

  28. jrthebeat says:

    Hi Guys, new here but I have been reading occasionally
    I believe
    1. this trade is about Hawes – they see he’s young, big, has some offensive skills ( especially compared to Sam)  and it avoids having to pay Sam to stay and endure the terribloe effect he has on an offence

    2. we are obviously much worse on D and rebounds, two areas where we could hardly afford to slip even further

    3. Turner is now clearly the pick – he gets to play with a young centre who can pass and shoot – at least compared to Sam – important for a passer/scorer like Turner – and it would make no sense to select Cousins or Favors ( if he is truly a future C) – as Smallwood says – Hawes is now our Centre project

    4. I don’t see this logjam at the SF – Collins wants Thad at the 4 so Nocioni and Kapono will back up Iguodala at the 3 spot and Thad, Brand and Speights will play PF wiht Brand and Speights backing up Hawes at the C

  29. Hobbes says:

    Seems like a really punchless trade using a guy whose contract would have fetched better if dangled next February.   Only way this makes sense to me is if it was clear to the coaches and management that Sammy and the new regime were incompatible.  I liked his production over the last year or two, but he’s got a reputation for not bringing it all the time, for being too laid back, for griping about not knowing his role, and–recently–for wanting out of Philly.   Maybe Collins didn’t want any part of him.   Certainly, what we’re getting back (or “are being saddled with”) doesn’t inspire doing cartwheels. 

  30. tk76 says:

    I’m on the same page as Dannie with this one.  Forget about the “trade value” discussion.  More important is the fact that the Sixers now zero interior defense and rebounding.  The have various iterations of Jason Smith- guys who have some skill, but are soft, can rebound and can’t defend.  The whole moves feels like Eddie Jordan all over again in terms of style and approach.
     
    I guess there could be some follow-up move to this where the Sixers add a defensive presense.  Like maybe trading Thad for a pick that gets Aldrich or Uduh… but I doubt it.  I think this trade was driven by:
     
    1.  The desire to get Sam out of the locker-room.
    2.  The need to get under the tax (Spreading Sam’s salary over 2 years.)
    3.  The preference of Stefanski of skilled, soft players.
     
     
     

  31. tk76 says:

    Edit, should read “can’t rebound” :)
     
    Hearing from King’s fans you wonder how well Hawes will go over in Philly.  He has issue with lack of work ethic, complaining in the media, not getting along with coaches and not committing himself to working out off the court.  These things made him unpopular in Sacramento- imaging how this will go over with Philly fans…
     
    But maybe a fresh start will wake him up to the fact that he has to commit himself to basketball.  Or he will be gone after 1 year- give his 10M cap hold.

  32. jjg says:

    Perfect relocation placement:  Sacramento is located in California’s Central Valley.

    Mixed emotions on Sam the Sham going, ranging from exuberance to jubilance to elation to euphoria. 

    Hawes & Nocioni?  A relative motherlode of fair skill, decent court IQ and cooperative attitude for Sixers to employ.  A crate of navel oranges would’ve sufficed.

    Agree that the trade was culturally-based:  Collins is intent on changing a ‘pay & play the bums’ culture to a ‘ditch the bums’ culture.
    Addition by subtraction, math you can believe in. 
     

     

  33. tk76 says:

    I am under no illusions regarding Sam’s fualts.  But I really only care about the current Sixers.  And the fact that their frontcourt players are now:
     
    Hawes/Brand/Speights/Smith/Young
     
    Skill, sure.  Rebounding and defense- not so much.
     
    This reminds me of when some people were happy Miller was gone- except at least the team lucked out in finding a PG at #17 in the draft.  I hope they make another move to find a center who cares about defense.
     
    Regarding Hawes, this is typical of King’s fans opinions of him:
     
    “Kid has talent, but he’s also stubborn, apparently frightened of contact, and convinced that he knows it all better than his coaches.”

  34. jkay says:

    uggh. i dont know who would like this trade. i think it was partly motivated by financial reasons. sixers could not wait to dump sammy and ease some cap space, guess the bills are coming in.

    they really like Hawes that much?
    this reeks of Jodie Meeks; wasting our resources on acquiring young players that they couldnt draft?

    i agree, another trade is coming up, before or right after draft day. that will probably determine just how bone headed this move is.

    Adieu Sammy.

  35. deepsixersuede says:

    The other shoe drops; draft night and Johnson and Aminu are off the board at #8 so the top 3 guys left are all bigs; Sixers tell clipps to draft the best player[ big] and they will trade Thad for D.Jordan over the summer when the clipps have cap room. Clipps get better at the 3 and backup 4/5 assuming Davis, Monroe, Aldrich or Udoh are left.

    Another year of Iggy, Lou and now Turner sitting on the perimeter is not what I want , jjkay, so hopefully this puts our team in a position to play to its strengths.

  36. jjg says:

    jkay,  Don’t know who would like this trade?  How ’bout 86.4% of Philly.com poll responders.  Now back to your regularly scheduled program … .
     

  37. deepsixersuede says:

    As far as the soft label;  last year he rebounded [per 48 min.] on par with B.Lopez and better than Nene and blocked shots [per 48 min.] better than Nene and Horford and on the same level as  B.Lopez. I consider those 3 players as pretty good centers, wouldn!t you guys.

  38. tk76 says:

    Yeah, and I’m sure 97% of fans were excited by the Brand signing.
     
    What percent of poll respondents do you think follow the Sixers closely- because not many people do any more (probably with good reason.)

  39. tk76 says:

    Suede, talk to some Kings fans.  Soft is a description of Hawes and not just a label.  He could get stronger and tougher… and Sam could have gotten smarter.  We will see.  I will root for Hawes to be the answer at center- but I won’t ignore his 3 year body pf work.  He rebounds better than Smith and worse than Speights.

  40. Dan says:

    I’m surprised so many of you dislike the trade. Maybe I’m not remembering last season correctly, but I’m pretty sure a lot of people were calling for Ed to trade Sam for ANYTHING at all.

  41. deepsixersuede says:

    tk, do you disagree that for this group to flerish we need shooting from either the 4 or 5? And getting a good defender at the s.g. and a lesser defender at the 5 could, with good coaching, be a wash and allow us to be top 10 to 15 like a few years ago?

  42. jjg says:

    TK76,  Consensus opinion was Sixers needed shooters.  They get two to contribute in this area of need and your focus, before close inspection of each player’s strengths and weaknesses, is on what each can’t do, supposedly or purportedly?  Reviews on both new Sixers are a mixed bag of information.  Coaching instruction/leadership and performance context/chemistry counts, I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss salutary
    potential of new human resources.   
       
    “Typical” downturned opinion of incoming players that you offer in support of your ‘sky is falling’ position could be countered with “typical” positive regard on each. 

    My quick take on incoming talent:  a veteran grunt and a big plant in need of a green thumb.  Both could disappoint, both could pleasantly surprise.  We’ve known too well the factors of the departed dilatory Dalembert.   

       

  43. deepsixersuede says:

    Jumpin, it will be good to see a big that can finish with both hands and step out and hit a 3. I think of a poor man!s bulls when I think of Iggy and Turner together;  before Michael became a good jumpshooter there were a lot of post ups for him and Pippen and I think we see the same thing here. Like it or not the 1/2 court offense will be back in Philly and this trade balances the floor.

  44. deepsixersuede says:

    D.Lynum reporting Turner will wear #1; you mean their not retiring Sammy!s number? Well Turner is definitely the pick.

  45. @Dannie

    Just wrote a pretty long comment but my laptop f’d up and I lost it…whatever

    Basically I was saying I agree with you on the (bad) trade, even if in the past we had different opinions on Sam’s value. We should have got more/better in return for him and we will have a giant hole in the middle of the paint.

    It’s funny that you wrote:

    “In all honesty I hope the Sixers suck hard again and land a top 5 pick next season”

    You seem to be already in tanking mode for 2010/2011 even before the 2009/2010 season was over, LOL.

    Regards !

  46. tk76 says:

    But Slamming Sammy Dee will always be #1 in our hearts! :)

  47. tk76 says:

    jjg, I don’t think the sky is falling because of this trade.  I’m not even sure it was a bd trade in terms of value (because Sam had little or no trade value.)  And I’m happly about the teams depth and skill at PG/SG/SF going forward.
     
    But the team has issues issue up front.  Specifically in terms of rebounding an interior defense.  Sam was not the answer, but he was a decent stop gap.  The problem was they were paying Sam and Brand 28M to be below average starters.  While Speights, Smith and Thad are cheaper below average defenders/rebounders.  Hawes is just anther jump shooting big who is a below average defender and rebounder (that is just consensus opinion on the guy.)
     
    Maybe Speights figures it out and taps into his potential?  Maybe Hawes starts working out and becomes committed to defense.  Maybe Brand recovers and returns to his younger form.  Maybe Smith has a breakout year.  Maybe Thad puts on 20 pounds, grows 2″ and becomes tough.  Maybe having 3 good perimeter defenders can compensate for no interior defense.
    Or maybe they will make another move to better address these issues.
     
    So yes, the sky is not falling.  But that does not make Hawes/Brand/Speights/Smith/Thad a legit defensive frontcourt.

  48. tk76 says:

    Brian at Depressedfan laid it out clearly: http://www.depressedfan.com/basketball/sixers/pressing-questions—618.php
     
    <blockquote cite=”

    Elton Brand – 14.7% defensive rebounding rate
    Thaddeus Young – 12.3% defensive rebounding rate
    Jason Smith – 14.7% defensive rebounding rate
    Marreese Speights – 19.7% defensive rebounding rate
    Spencer Hawes – 17.7% defensive rebounding rate

    Among PFs in the league who averaged more than 20 minutes/game last season:

    Brad ranks 6th-worst in the league in defensive rebounding rate (Brand played a decent chunk of his minutes at the five, which makes this number ranking deceptively good).
    Thad ranks 3rd-worst in the league in defensive rebounding rate (Thad played the three, so this number is deceptively bad, but not that deceptively)
    Smith ties Brand for sixth-worst (and he played center as well)
    Speights is the best of the bunch at 20th-worst (again, spent a lot of time at center).

    Among centers in the league who averaged more than 20 minutes/game last season:

    Brand would be 2nd-worst, not even close, but he did play the majority of his minutes at the four. Still, he’s probably our starting center right now so it’s meaningful. (Andrea Bargnani averaged 16.0%, as a point of comparison)
    Smith, same as Brand.
    Speights doesn’t fare as well here, 14th from the bottom.
    Hawes ranks 9th-worst.

    “>

  49. Dannie says:

    Suede - Why do you insist on talking about Hawes shooting threes when he does so poorly?  I am pretty sure all NBA centers can “step out and hit a three” doing so at a clip that supports team goals is an entirely different story. Makes no sense to me.

    Ricky - Don’t mistake my comment for tanking, please. I am not saying I want the team to go out and deliberately lose.  But if they flat out suck, I won’t be that mad because it will mean we get another chance to upgrade the roster via the draft.

    If I had any hope or trust in management to make strong, solid moves via trades or with their signing decisions I wouldn’t be so negative.  Meaning, the only way I see this team improving is via the draft, high in the draft and the only way for that to likely to happen is as a result of a poor record.

    I think coaching change will help, almost immediately.  End of the day though, without more talent team still has no chance of relevance.

    We saw in this Finals how critical interior play on the boards and defensively impact the outcome of the NBA championship and the Sixers just took a pretty nice size step in the wrong direction to that end.

  50. deepsixersuede says:

    tk, shouldn!t our 1, 2, and 3 all be top 5 this year in rebounding at their position?

  51. deepsixersuede says:

    Dannie, like Iggy , better shot selection will help but he is a threat and the picknpop with Turner and Jrue using Hawes will be a potent weapon.

  52. tk76 says:

    Absolutely.  I think Iguodala is a better rebounder at PF than Thad, Smith or Brand (much like how Kobe dominated on the boards last night because he saw that was what his team needed.)
     
    I just do not believe that winning the rebounding battle at PG/SG/SF will amount to much if you C and PF are being beaten.

  53. Dannie says:

    I tend not to believe in “threats.”  Those are the guys teams leave open for a reason.

    Pick and pop could be a potent weapon.  Time will tell.

    Sadly all the people in favor of this move have nothing at all to say about defense.  All about how this potentially helps the offense and how it very clearly will hurt the defense and rebounding.

  54. tk76 says:

    How does OKC defend so well without any legit froncourt defenders?

  55. deepsixersuede says:

    Dannie, accountability on defense is a must; in spite of Sam!s skills there were many times where he gave up on rotating and didn!t  rotate to the right spot. I know it is a step back with Hawes but believe Collins will get the most out of this team, I have to believe that to keep my sanity. Hawes hopefully will be a tough cover for the Howard!s and Lopez!s of the world and may allow them to get fouls and sit when we play them, thereby helping our chances of winning. Don!t you feel it would of been easy to defend our team if we added Turner and nothing else?

  56. jjg says:

    tk76,  I’m confused by the Sixers right now.  Definitive statements on their condition and their future are vain attempts at blind prediction.  One thing I know:  when you got garbage, ya take it out.  In that regard, I’m well pleased.  Yes, I agree, issues of substance or its lack remain as it pertains to the roster.  Yesterday’s movement, tacking towards good.  One opinion.

    suede,  An inside finisher?  What’s that?  And either hand!?!   Yes, I’ll take two, please.  

  57. tk76 says:

    I agree that Sam was not the answer at center (not even close.)
    Just like Miller was not the long term answer at PG.
     
    I guess given the Sixers turned out OK long term in the PG department maybe I should try and give them a chance to find Sams replacement… I just don’t think that player is on the roster right now.

  58. Dannie says:

    TK76 - OKC has 4 very good, versatile and dedicated defenders on the floor almost at all times.

    In the front court I think Ibaka is quite good and will only get better.

    In the end though, they still lost in the playoffs because they couldn’t defend enough inside OR pull down a rebound when it matter (Gasol tip that really won that series for the Lakers) and is a big reason I expect them to draft a front court player to add size, defense  and rebounding inside.

    Suede - I have no idea about this team.  How can anyone at this time?  We have a new coach who will look at what he has and devise a way to play that he thinks will work.  Neither you, nor I or any other opposing team know what that is right now.  From a talent perspective adding Turner helps, but dudes still need to make shots efficiently.  Having Hawes helps that how?  Just because he likes to shoot jumpers doesn’t mean it’s a good thing.  Maybe it is, but if he is jacking and missing I don’t see an positive on the court by adding him in exchange for Dalembert.

    I really, really hope they try to trade Nocioni because I have no clue where he fits on this team where Iguodala plays more minutes than anyone in the entire NBA , Turner (if he is the pick) should be thrown into the fire immediately and they have one last season to full evaluate Thad before they need to make that decision.

    Let me AGAIN repeat my point – I don’t really care that much that they traded Sam, especially if it was to change the culture of the team.  But I have no belief whatsoever that all of a sudden this is a team to be reckon with.  That we just got much better or better at all in terms of production and on court performance.

    Simply put, I don’t like Hawes – at all.  He isn’t my kind of player and by some accounts he wasn’t a great teammate, lockerroom guy OR very coachable either.

  59. deepsixersuede says:

    That reads like S.Bradley to me, would rather be on the golf course. At least this shows it isn!t gonna be a quick fix;  Nucioni may play more 4 than 3 here, he seems to rebound a lot better than Thad and may be an improvement defending and rebounding as a backup for than Thad depending on matchups. He at least will body up on a J.Green or R.Lewis in the post. I believe Thad!s days are numbered but hope we get equal value if he is moved [D.Jordan?]

  60. tk76 says:

    More fun with numbers:
     

    Defensive rebounding rate, league rank: http://www.hoopdata.com/defrebstats.aspx
     
    Sam: #3
    Speights: #82
    Hawes: #118
    Brand: #165
    Smith #165
    Young: #223

  61. Jake says:

    Am i the only one who thinks the Sixers don’t have a chance of drafting the right kid?
    Turner, Favors…doesn’t matter…I would rather them gamble on Cousins then go with the ‘sure’ things. Either way, whoever they pick, the sixers will not end up with the second best talent in this draft.

    That being said, i liked sammy. And i do not like when this trade happened (waiting til february would have paid better dividends). His rebounding and blocks will be hard to replace, if not irreplacable next season. He never fully matured into the type of player he could have been, but the dude played defense with the best of them. He might have taken several retarded shots a game, but still, his pressence will be missed unless they actually pull off a blockbuster.

    This is definitely a culture trade. Collins and Stefanski are rebuilding this team. Iggy or Thad or Speights is next. No doubt about it.
    Collins and Stefanski have been around a little while, they know what they just traded and they know they don’t have a legit shock-blocking, rebounding pressence in the paint.
    They will probably do something about it, either through the draft or trade….they have to, right?

    Dannie, you just said OKC succeeded by having four guys on the floor who can play defense at all times? So the sixers should have at least three….
    Jrue, Iggy and Thad are three above average versatile on-ball defenders…Throw Brand and Hawes out there and I’ll take it. Too bad Iggy can’t actually play the 2.

    I just hope they don’t draft another psuedo 3/4 to go along with Iggy and Thad. They better get someone who can shoot the rock.  

  62. Jake says:

    If nothing else, this trade sparked some interesting conversation…that’s good, right?

  63. Dave T says:

    Tk76 – Oklahoma City has very solid frontcourt defenders, as individuals.  True, none of them are stars, but:
     
    -Serge Ibaka – Is the definition of a tough interior defender.  Wide body, enjoys mixing it up and muscling guys around, really boxes out well and crashes the offensive glass like a beast.
     
    -Nick Collison – Has always been an effective rebounder, an underrated help defender, and while athletically he can be overmatched a lot, he leaves it all out on the floor and hustles his butt off to make the most of his talent.
     
    -Krystic – As European players go, he is far more in the scrappy, hustle style of play then pure finesse.  Brooks really got Krystic to buy into their defensive system, a la Thibidoux in Boston.
     
    -Etan Thomas – The definition of a defensive center.  Great shot blocker, has a great knack for where the ball will fall on missed shots, good defensive rebounder and plays tough on ball defense.
     
    -Jeff Green – Athletic, for his size does a nice job playing back to the basket players, can chase people around the perimeter as well, doesn’t back down from anyone, plays solid on ball and help defense, extremely quick and is able to cut off drives well.
     
    Suede – Way earlier in the thread you mentioned a trade possibility revolving around Thad Young to the Clippers for De’Andre Jordan and another role player.  Now, I don’t actually think the Clippers would do this, as Thad has yet to prove he can be a capable, reliable SF starter in the NBA, and his stock is real low from inconsistent production last year, and unless you are really going for a monster SF, most teams wouldn’t give up a nice project big for a 6’8 SF.
     
    That said…wanted to give you a shout out because I think the idea of the trade is a good, and realistic one, as opposed to these crazy far fetched things people throw out.  And I think these types of trades are ones we should be looking at: identifying what needs another team has at positions xyz…and identifying which of our players they might realistically want to put there.
     
    I do not AT ALL buy the notion that we cannot improve our team through trades.  Lou Williams, Thad, Speights, and Jrue are all players that other teams would be interested in, along with Iguodala (don’t think we should trade Iggy though)…and teams would certainly like Kapono’s expiring $6.5 million deal.  We have to be more patient in how we shed our salary and identify players that could legitimately help us down the road though.
     
    Nocioni – I might HATE this trade, but I actually do like Nocioni as a player.  If Collins wanted toughness, he certainly got it.  I have a soft spot for hustler/bangers that don’t take shit from people and wont back down, and Nocioni is the definition of that.  We haven’t had a guy like this on our team for a long, long, long, long, long time.  I can actually see him becoming a fan favorite.  My only problems with acquiring him are:
     
    1.  He’s overpaid.
    2.  He takes away time from our Thad Speights
     
    …and he…is…an…AWFUL…shooter.  He is one of these guys that can occassionally knock down a three, but you can’t rely on him at all.  His midrange shot is one of THE ugliest looking forms in the NBA.  Honestly, Nocioni & Iguodala’s 15-18 foot jumpers are probably two of the worst in the NBA.  But, I do love the dude’s toughness.

  64. tk76 says:

    I’d say the Sixers are “leaning” towards Turner.  Check out this web page.  there is no Favors/Cousins/Wall equivalent:
     
    http://www.nba.com/sixers/draft_turner.html#

  65. Jake says:

    Why the trade happened:

    “I was thinking I had to play Elton Brand strictly as a five [center], because I just didn’t think he and Sam played well together,” Collins said Friday at the Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine. “Now, I feel Elton can play with Hawes. I think he can play with [Marreese] Speights. So it changes the dynamics of that.”

    Read more: http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/20100618_Sammy_trade_affects_Brand_most.html#ixzz0rEJGFYFk
    Play fantasy sports and win cash prizes instantly. Philly.com’s Instant Fantasy Sports Games

  66. Dannie says:

    That Collins quote is basically saying offensively he didn’t like the Sam/Brand front court.  I understand that.  It’s fine, but make no mistake you are sacrificing defense and rebounding and I don’t know if I like that sacrifice, at least not as a long term philosophy.

    Jake - I don’t consider Thad to be an above average defender.  So as is they would have just two.  With that said, if they draft Turner that would add another above average defender to the mix.  Brand used to be, he clearly is not now – at least not with any degree of consistency.  One night he looks like he has a lot of energy and his body is moving.  Other nights he looks like a pile of lard that can barely dunk, rebound or contest a shot.

  67. jurnee16 says:
  68. Ed R. says:

    Yeah but now the Sixers have taken it off their website. Lame but whatever.

  69. Pete says:

    Pretty funny – looks like they set-up Cousins and Favors sites right after to make it seem like they were doing it for everyone.

    A Turner/Holiday backcourt would get me very excited about next season (not because I think we will be any good though). These are two kids who are great defenders, have a great work ethic and seem like they will be very easy to root for.

    As for the Hawes/Sam trade. I feel like they could have gotten more for Sam’s expiring deal, and I agree with the obvious that he’s a big downgrade defensively. However, I don’t mind it for 2 reasons.

    • If we draft Turner, that’s gives us very good passers at SG, SF and C and a decent passing PG. Now it would be nice if they could all shoot, but it will be interesting to see if it helps our average shooters get higher % shots.
    • Frankly, I watched fewer Sixers’ games than I ever have last year, and I would welcome pretty much any trade not involving Jrue just so the team that goes on the floor next year looks as little as possible like the 2009-10 version.

  70. Pete says:

    “He’s played in the best competitive situations, he understands pressure, he’s been the best player on his team,” Collins said. “That’s one thing that I always look for when I look for guys coming into the NBA – did you have the responsibility night in and night out of being the best player on your team? So if you didn’t play well, your team probably didn’t get a chance to win the game.

    Well – if that’s the case Doug, I would have to assume the rumors of you wanting Favors are untrue.

     

  71. Dave T says:

    Philly.com/Sixers: Michael Curry, Brian James, Aaron McKie and Quin Snyder have been officially named assistant coaches.

    We all know who 3 of the 4 are (I really like Michael Curry as a choice for assistant), but does anyone have any info on Brian James?  I don’t know the name offhand, is he a former assistant of Collins?

  72. Dannie says:
  73. Ed R. says:

    Pretty sure the Evans picture on the website was someone who tried to do a test and screwed up royally. Though the thought of Jrue and Turner in the backcourt gets me excited. Like it was said above, I would love for this team to blow next year so they can get another top 5 pick but I don’t see it happening. This team is better than a bottom 5 team just with Collins as the coach.

  74. Dave T says:

    Dannie – Thanks for the info on Brian James.
     
    One upside to Hawes – (again, just preluding this comment with the fact that I DO NOT like this trade at all, but that said)…if you are going to get a young big in the NBA, you want to get him in the 3rd or 4th year of NBA experience.  Project bigs, especially ones that left so early from college like Hawes did (he really should have stayed at Washington…he and Quincy Pondexter would have been a great duo), often take an extra few years to really get their game underway in the league then wings and guards do.
     
    It’s very possible that Hawes…well, I don’t want to use the word “blossom”, but I do think that if we give him a lot of PT, we will be getting him at the right time in his career.  Guys always play with an extra “umph” after being traded (I would not be surprised if Sammy gets 12 pts and 10 rbs this year), and I could see Hawes ratcheting up his toughness a bit after being stuck on a horrendously crappy team for two years straight.
     
    I haven’t watched much of the Kings the past two years, but I did see a lot of Hawes in his freshman year at Washington…the guy might not be a defensive stud, but I do remember being impressed with his rebounding ability when he was still in college, and he showed flashes of nice footwork that I remember being excited about as a guy that could someday have a legit post game.  I’m hoping the combo of Collins and Brand will toughen him up and get Hawes back to showing the real effort to rebound that we saw out of him in college.
     
    Guy is definitely in the Andrew Bogut mold.  Time will tell how this turns out.  I just really think this is a case of Ed jumping to shed Sammy the first chance he could get, and I dont think it was the right move.

  75. Dave T says:

    Chris Ford on 76ers’ draft status since trade:



    Ford: Draft Ramifications of Trade

    The real ramifications ofSamuel Dalembert‘s trade from the Philadelphia 76ersto the Sacramento Kingsmay come during the NBA draft.
    The Sixers have been deciding whether to select Evan Turner or Derrick Favorswith the No. 2 pick. Although Sixers general manager Ed Stefanski is a Turner fan, new coach Doug Collins is high on Favors. With Dalembert gone and Nocioni in, it could push them in the direction of Favors.

  76. tk76 says:

    DaveT, Ford has been saying the Sixers really want Favors for weeks.  The problem is no one else ever backs him up- and then he ends up back tracking.  Either he knows something no one else does, or he is trying to stir up interest in his reports.

  77. Ed R. says:

    Ford is an idiot and has been pegging the Sixers to take Favors pretty much from the jump. He was wrong then and he is still wrong. I guess he will figure it out on draft night.

  78. deepsixersuede says:

    Does the fact Collins wasn!t gonna play Sammy and Elton together much and probably start Elton at center lessen the anger on the trade for anyone?  At least we will see more big lineups now that our coach feels the pieces compliment each other more.

  79. tk76 says:

    I don’t really have any anger about the trade.  I mean what should we expect in return for Sam?
     
    I also see what the Sixers are hoping to do (rebounding by committee etc.)
     
    But I also saw what the Sixers were trying to do under EJ (P.O., offense without needing a real PG) and it failed.  I am concerned that given the frontcourt players, rebounding by committee will be a similar failure- but I have more confidence in Collins than Jordan, so I’m willing to see what happens.  And they can always get a center the next year…

  80. deepsixersuede says:

    Tk, when Collins said he has 4 bigs that can score the ball is Thad one of those?  And if Thad isn!t going to run out and instead rebound than run does he become an adequate rebounder?

  81. jjg says:

    But they can get a big this year, Favors or Cousins, who figure to have good careers!  The love affair with Turner is to me an amazing turn, and misguided.  Sixers need inside might or a great deep shooter, not another 6’6″ wing dancer.  I’d be happy with Favors or Cousins or Johnson on Thursday night.  Turner:  may he have a strong career elsewhere, unless Iguodala is about to be moved - only then would 
    Turner fill a vacancy.  There’s only one ball on the court.  Holiday, Iguodala, Turner – ball/ego needy.

  82. deepsixersuede says:

    Jumpin, Collins! statement that when a guy is the main guy, and his team wins or loses depending on his play, the ability to succeed and play well in that role tells him a lot about that person sold me on who we are picking. All your doubts and mine about Iggy!s ego will be answered this season and if he becomes efficient offensively and better defensively without the ball in his hands as much than I and you will both be pleasantly surprised. And with a strong willed coach here I truly expect that to happen. Iggy will finally be able to fill the role he was built for, and I can!t wait.

  83. tk76 says:

    Suede, Collins said a few times how nobody will be leaking out on the break.  They will have to send all 5 players to the defensive boards, but at least if Jrue/Turner/Iguodala/Young grab the rebound they are skilled enough to dribble out and possibly initiate the break, instead of simple giving the ball to the PG to set up the offense.
     
    I’m thinking this can work, but only if the bigs at least box out.  Sure the Sixers have good rebounders at PG/SG/SF, but if the opposing bigs are not boxed out it won’t help.  But it should be interesting.  Although in an ideal world I’d have a dominant rebounder with good outlet passing skills to trigger the Sixers athletes on the break- given that is one of the teams areas of strength.

  84. tk76 says:

    jjg, I agree a strong argument can be made for drafting Favors or Cousins.  Brian at Depressedfan has been pushing for Favors and makes a persuasive argument.
     
    IMO, if the players are equal then the Sixers should go for the big or a pure shooter.  I’m not expert enough to have my own opinion, but I get the sense that most people believe Turner is plane above the other prospects (both now and in the future) so he becomes more of a no brainier type pick (like Portland should have taken MJ over Bowie even when you had Drexler- but obviously not quite at that level.)
     

  85. Dannie says:

    It’s a very clear and distinct philosophy based decision combined with how the team has players ranked.

    Do you draft for need?  We clearly need an impact front court player and a dynamic perimeter shooter (though I argue we need a dynamic perimeter scorer who can shoot – big difference).

    Do you draft best available player?  That is very clearly Evan Turner.

    What does the Sixers draft board look like?  I imagine Turner is ranked ahead of everyone but John Wall, but by how much is the question?  If he is only edging Favors (or Cousins and Johnson) than the argument becomes tougher.  But if they have Turner far and away ahead of Favors I really don’t think you can draft someone that much lesser even if they fit a need.

    Further, JJG I think there is zero chance the Sixers draft Cousins based on their trading of Samuel Dalembert.  They have very clearly said both with their action (the trade) and their words that they are trying to change the culture.  There very little way they can support drafting Cousins who has questions about his work ethic and attitude, despite his acknowledge talent.

  86. jjg says:

    suede, I think Stefanski’s still got an itchy trigger finger; more  
    interesting developments could occur soon.  I don’t see Iguodala as a blender, even with Collins naggin’ ‘im to sublimate.

    tk76,  No such thing as ‘equals.’  All 4 bring about 19-21 years life experience, including various college stays and regimens/coaching, and offer various but distinctly different talents.  We agree on areas of Sixer need.
     
    Dannie, You’re probably right on their strong disinclination to herd in Cousins, based on character questions and their culture change desire.
    However, I like his core belief in himself as a player, think the “issues” question may be overplayed.  ‘Clean cut’ and NBA rarely in same sentence.  Gimme a hungry rebounder and a capable inside scorer.
    With good guidance, should be an impact player. 
         

  87. deepsixersuede says:

    Did you guys see the latest draftexpress mock?  A lot of bigs are dropping and if the site goes by what it hears around the league than maybe attaining a defensive cocenter or defensive 4 , depending on Spieghts position, will be easier than expected. Give me Whiteside, Alabi or Sanders and I am one happy camper.

  88. Dannie says:

    Easier than expected?  Yes, if we had another pick in the bag already.  But what leads you to believe the Sixers will either buy a later first rounder or trade for a later first rounder when they have no track record of doing so?

    I’d love to see it but I have a feeling the team isn’t going to move any of its younger players before Collins has a chance to evaluate and work with them.  So I struggle to see how they acquire a second pick via trade. That’s why I wanted them to get a pick in any Sammy deal.  Too late.

    Buying a pick would shock me a great deal.

  89. Dannie says:

    For those who don’t have ESPN Insider, here is a Sixers relevant snippet of this years “draft tier rankings.”

    Factor in the ranking wars with another age-old debate — do you draft for need or for the best player available — and it’s no surprise the draft can be so volatile. Many teams take into account holes at certain positions (i.e., the team has no small forward) or coaching/system preferences (i.e., the Jazz draft players who can fit into coach Jerry Sloan’s system) when making their decisions.

    To make sense of disparate rankings and debates over team needs, the past few years I’ve chronicled a draft ranking system employed by several teams that have been very successful in the draft, what I call a tier system. Instead of developing an exact order from 1 to 60 of the best players in the draft, these teams group players, based on overall talent, into tiers. Then, the teams rank the players in each tier based on need.

    This system allows teams to draft not only the best player available, but also the player who best fits a team’s individual needs.

    So what do the tiers look like this year? After talking to several GMs and scouts whose teams employ this system, I put together the following groupings. (Because the teams do not want to divulge their draft rankings publicly, the teams will remain anonymous.)

    Players are listed alphabetically in each tier.

    Tier 1

    John Wall

    Note: Wall is the consensus No. 1 pick in the draft, but unlike last year with Blake Griffin, he’s not miles ahead of Evan Turner or Derrick Favors. Still, when all 30 GMs agree you are No. 1, you get your own category.

    Tier 2

    DeMarcus Cousins, Derrick Favors, Wesley Johnson, Evan Turner

    Note: Turner is the consensus No. 2 pick in the draft. All but two teams listed him as the No. 2 player on their boards, regardless of need. However, one team listed Favors and another went with Cousins at No. 2, while Johnson got a handful of votes at No. 3. The thing they all have in common is that every team I’ve spoken with believes these players could be NBA All-Stars down the road…

    So how does the tier system work?

    A team ranks players in each tier according to need. So, in Tier 4, if a team needs a swingman, a guy like Hayward or Henry is ranked No. 1. If power forward is the biggest need, Udoh or Patterson is ranked No. 1.

    The rules are pretty simple. You always draft the highest-ranked player in a given tier. Also, you never take a player from a lower tier if one from a higher tier is available. So, for example, if the Hornets are drafting No. 11 (Tier 4 territory) and Aminu (a Tier 3 player) is on the board, they take him regardless of position. If they have Aldrich ranked No. 1 in Tier 4, they still take Aminu, even though center is a more pressing need.

  90. Ed R. says:

    Dannie…any chance you think the Sixers trade Iguodala for a top 10 pick? I heard rumors that the Kings might be willing to trade the number 5 pick if Favors is taken by the Net’s or Wolves as many suspect he will be. I guess they aren’t high on Cousins either. I don’t know if Dala is enough to get the 5th pick but I’m just throwing that out there.

  91. Dannie says:

    So based on the tier system the Sixers need to make a decision on which need is most important – shooting guard or center/PF then rank the Tier 2 players accordingly.

    If center/pf is their perceived highest need Favors (or Cousins if they have him ranked higher) is the pick based on this system.  If shooting guard is the perceived highest need Turner (or Johnson if they have him ranked higher) is the pick.

    Do the Sixers use this system, I don’t know.

  92. tk76 says:

    Thanks for the quite.  I do have Inside (4$ a year magazine deal.)  Interesting take to put Turner on the same tier as Cousins, Favors and Johnson.  That is not the impression I get from reading what’s available on the internet… and you are quoting Chad Ford, who has often been an outliers in prospect rankings.
     
    The sense I get is that Turner is second tier all by himself because he will be near all-star right away, with star upside.  While the other names either have lower ceilings (Johnson) or bigger question marks.  Of course, Turner gets docked a bit for age, but I don’t believe enough to put the others on his level.
     
    Of course I’m only basing this on the sum of what I read- so Ford could be spot on.  I just call Ford into question because he has a history of sitting in Hawaii and spouting out controversial “inside info” that seems self serving at times.
     
     

  93. tk76 says:

    If I were the GM, and convinced that Favors was going to as good as Turner, I would draft Favors, trade Iguodala and stink it up for 2 years (adding more top picks.)  then hope to be a stocked team on the rise after the lockout season (when Brand is an expiring.)
     
    But as I said, aside from Chad Ford, I get the impression that Turner is a level of player better- so he would be my choice and hope he is a star.

  94. tk76 says:

    I do think if Turner is a star, it can positively impact all of the other layers.  Iguodala and Jrue in particular, could really feast on lesser defenders if Turner is drawing star level defensive attention.
     
    I also see how 2 bigs with consistent 18 foot range (Speights/Hawes) could really open up the lane for slashers like Jrue/Turner/Iguodala.  I just am underwhelmed by the  interior defensive potential of that line-up.

  95. Dave T says:

    Suede – I’m with you, I would LOVE a mid to late 1st round pick in this draft, and a 2nd round pick as well.  I’m on board with Dannie and am pretty surprised we didn’t push for at LEAST a 2nd round pick this year (where I would take my man-crush Jarvis Varnardo from Miss. St. in a heartbeat).
     
    From the high school to pros era, and now in the one-and-done era, the positions from 20-35 in the draft can land you a legitimately good player in the past 7 years or so, and I’m just really surprised we have not taken more advantage of this, especially from a team that nabbed Korver/Green in those spots.  The past three years there have been a nice amount of talent, in shooting, backup SF’s or solid bigs, that we could have gotten with a late 1st or early 2nd round pick, and with the financial crunch of the league, we could have likely had one easier then not.
     
    Tk – For the record, I’m aware Ford has been saying that about Favors for weeks, but he is one of the premier media draft experts alive right now, he’s a smart guy, well connected in the league, and the update I posted was his most recent update (June 18th, 8:00 p.m.) than he has had about the Sixers for a while.  Just because I post what he’s saying, relevant Sixer news/gossip, doesn’t mean I agree with him.
     
    Ed R – Why would you want to trade Iguodala for a top 5 pick?  Aside from needing to match salaries, where you’d need to include another 1-3 players as Iguodala’s making $13 million and a top 10 pick would make roughly 2-3 million, are a good 10 million off…who in the top 10 is likely to be better than Iguodala?
     
    No team is going to trade their top 5 pick.  Period, unless it is a massively creative deal, so that axes out Favors/Cousins/Wes.  Which means you are talking about giving up a versatile athletic defensive near all-star scorer for…who?  Monroe?  Aldrich?   Xavier Henry?  Aminu?  Babbitt?  Patterson?  Hayward?  Doesn’t make much sense.

  96. Dave T says:

    Elton Brand - I think people are underrating what Elton still has left in the tank for defensive/rebounding ability.  I really like the way Doug Collins compared the current day Brand to the mid 90′s Joe Dumars…a guy who clearly was in the twilight of his career, but was able to re-invent himself as a tough nosed, heady veteran that put up good numbers and was able to contribute and help the Grant Hill Pistons win.
     
    Before everyone jumps down my throat, I’m NOT saying:
    -Elton will ever again be the player he was
    -Will be any semblance of an all star
    -Will be a go to guy or monster in the paint
     
    …but I DO think that we forget just how long it takes to come back from major surgeries.  I don’t think he ever got a chance to get in a rhythm, and can’t we all agree that the way EJ jerked him in and out of the lineup last year, not at ALL based on performance but on a random coach’s whim, would shatter a player’s confidence when trying to regain his form?  There is also the fact that Dalembert was a primary rebounder, and taking potential boards away from Elton.
     
    I see Elton having a very solid year for us.  16 pts 10 rbs and 2 blks…17 pts 9 rbs 1.5 blks…somewhere along these lines…because I feel he’ll be:
    -In the best shape of his career since joining the Sixers
    -Have a coach 100% committed to putting him in spots and positions Brand is comfortable with (Collins has talked a lot with Coach K and Brand).
    -Having the confidence knowing he will be out there with legit PT every game, which cannot be overstated.
     
    There were times last year when Brand showed flashes of being the excellent defender he once was, and the excellent rebounder he once was.  With better health, more consistency, and the coach dedicated to being in his corner, these three things will add up.  It’ll make a difference next year.

  97. Dannie says:

    I don’t think this is Ford just making stuff up to drum up interest.  It’s his interpretation of what’s been told to him by NBA ppl and scouts. Also, it also doesn’t mean every team has their board ranked this way, just that it’s a general and light consensus of the league.  I am sure many teams have Turner on a tier 2 all to himself, the Sixers may be one of those teams.

    But the fact that some teams actually have Favors and Cousins at #2 ahead of Turner suggests there is some part of the league that believe all those guys are on the same level in terms of future impact in the league.

    I mean, he even said the league doesn’t necessarily think Wall is far and away ahead of the second tier players like we’ve seen in years past with the consensus #1.

  98. guest says:

    As much as this trade doesn’t make sense to some of us, trading Iguodala as well would make even less sense.
     
    As some have pointed out, Doug Collins came into here talking defense and how it is going to be important for our team to be successful.  To trade our best front court defender (Sammy) and then go and trade our best wing defender (Iguodala) just wouldn’t make sense to me.
     
    Yes, another first round pick would be great… but using Sammy to get that pick would have been a lot better than using Iguodala.

  99. tk76 says:

    I’m probably overstating things regarding Ford- he certainly is plugged in more than most and I respect his opinions and sources.  I was just trying to put the quote from insider into context.   Ford has been the main Favors to Philly guy from day one- and he has been nearly alone in that regard.
     
    I put Ford above, say Sam Smith.  He’s probably more even keeled than Vescey, but I’m not sure he’s better connected.
     
     

  100. The Real Rob says:

    Get a load of this dream scenario I found on a website.  What do you think of Amir Johnson, assuming we draft Evan Turner?

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/407801-nba-draft-free-agency-trade-rumors-dream-scenarios-for-all-30-teams#page/3

  101. deepsixersuede says:

    Dannie, that looks like a good way of evaluating the draft but some years devising the tiers must be tough. Here are my reasons for thinking they may use Thad for a young defensive big. 

    1] Collin!s comment yesterday that having complimentary bigs allows him to play bigger lineups. Did he use small lineups at other teams he coached? 

    2] his seemingly high regard for Nucioni and his physical play that can be used, along with his better rebounding and spot up shooting in Thad!s role as a 3/4 off the bench. 

    3] Thad and Hawes both being at the end of their rookie deals and possibly having to choose between them when trading Thad for a guy on a rookie deal allows for that player to be locked in at a discount rate. 

    DaveT.,  I hope Elton improves defensively and rebounding wise but if he scores about the same I am okay with that. It would be nice for Iggy to become a 3rd option at the end of games though, like allowing him to crash from the weak side for the winning tip.

  102. Chuck says:

    I do believe Chad Ford is just doing this to drum up interest.. the guy is a moron.. were taking Turner as we have been since the moment we got the second pick.
     
    Dannie what do you think about taking Zoubek in the second round for some rebounding and big man presence or looking at him if he goes undrafted with sammy gone.

  103. deepsixersuede says:

    Chuck, that!s a good name, especially if undrafted. Also wonder about Samhan but he may make more overseas.

  104. Dannie says:

    Chuck, we don’t have a 2nd round pick.  I wish the Sixers would pay more attention to undrafted players (Anthony Morrow) since they are only drafting one dude a year now – but they don’t.  Another indication (along with no quality foreign players) that all the hype giving to Dileo is somewhat unwarranted.

  105. deepsixersuede says:

    Just did a mock draft and here are my team picks; 
    1] Wash.- J.Wall  30-S.Robinson  35-T.White
    2]Phila.-E.Turner  32-[OK.City trade]-G.Lawal
    3]N.Jersey- D.Favors  27-L.Babbit  31-G.Vazquez 
    4]Minn.- W.Johnson  16-L.Sanders  23-Ell.Williams  45-H.N! Diaye
    5] Sacra.- G.Monroe  33-W.Warren
    6] Gold.St.-A.Aminu  34-T.Pliess 
    7]Det.- D.Cousins   36- M.Torrance 
    8]L.A. Clipp.- G.Hayward  54- L.Stephenson 
    9] Utah- E.Davis   55- A.Shved 
    10] Ind.- E.Udoh   40- J.Randall  57- R.Richards 
    11] N. Orl.- P.Patterson  
    12] Memph.- P.George   25- E.Bledsoe  28] C.Brackins  
    13] Toronto- C.Aldrich   51-[Okl.City trade]  J.Varnado 
    14] Houston- H.Whiteside  
    15]  Milw.- X.Henry    37] T.Booker  47] B.Zoubek 
    16] Minn. -see above 
    17] Chic.- A.Bradley 
    18]-Miami- S.Alabi  41] D.Hobson   42] P.Prestes  48- Sh. Collins 
    19]-Boston- J.Crawford  52] J.Jordan 
    20] S. Antonio-  Dq. Jones   49]A. Parakhouski  
    21]- Okl. City- D.Orton   26] Q. Poindexter   32 and 51 traded to Phi. & Tor. 
    22]-Port.- K. Seraphin    44]  Lat. Williams 
    23] Minn.- see above 
    24]Atlanta- J.Anderson   53] M.Radulija 
    25] Memphis- see above 
    26] Okl. City-see above 
    27] New Jersey- see above 
    28]  Memphis- see above 
    29] Orlando- Dam. James   59] M.Bouldin  
    30]- Washington- see above 

    Teams without 1st rounders; 
    New York-  38]- Arm. Johnson   39] Ch. Garcia 
    L. A. Lakers-  43- D. Caracter  58] S.Landesberg 
    Pheonix- 46- S. Samuels   60- D. Pittman 
    Dallas- 50- D. Eubanks 

  106. deepsixersuede says:

    Forgot Cleveland trades for Minn. pick # 56 and takes T.Gallon.

  107. 2one5 says:

    Iggy to Minn for Al Jefferson and we swap 2 and 4 and draft wesley johnson. Damn I can’t decide if I like that I think I do. Minn can than take Cousins to team with Love their PF of the future. We get a legit 3 who can shoot and a back to the basket big man who will help us out in the paint. Than we can package thad with an expiring for a two guard.

  108. deepsixersuede says:

    I just read a weird scenerio on real g.m. trade forum by supposed member of Cleveland press with a source [who knows?]. Cleveland trades M.Williams and D.Green and filler, Sacramento trades Udrih and #5. Phila. trades Iggy and we end up with #5 , D.Green and Udrih. I am not sure if money works.

  109. The_Crooked_Man says:

    Danni, have you ever seen Nocioni play?  Not trying to be a smartass, but if you’re worried about him taking minutes from Thad and Speights, then I don’t think that you have;  he’s better than either of them.  He plays extremely tenacious defense, is a hustle fiend, and can shoot a bit.  Have you seen his numbers in the playoffs?  They’re ABSURD!  Couple that with his gold medal as a starter for the Argentinians, and it’s pretty obvious that he’s a hell of a big game player.  I would be very surprised if the Sixers keep both Thad and Iggy, so if one of them is gone, and we draft Turner, he’d be a very nice fit to start at the 3.  With a 1-2-3 of Jrue, Turner and Nocioni, our starting backcourt/wing will be insanely good defensively, and perhaps better offensively than we’ve had in quite a few years.  I’m with you on Hawes, though, seems like a duplicate of Speights in a lot of ways, though I’m not too familiar with him.  I’d like to see Iggy in a trade package that would land us a backup 2 and a draft pick that could land us a defensive center.

  110. joof says:

    I cant figure out if I like this trade or not.

    We do get new players to buy into D Collins plan, and a lower cap this yr.

    But I dont like that we have more long term contracts past this yr.

    I think SD couldve been traded to a playoff team for his play and expiring contract in return for a role player and a pick or 2.

  111. Dave T says:

    Crooked Man – Nocioni is a nice player, but I don’t think he’s anyone worth getting too crazy about.  IMO:
     
    Nocioni Pros:
    -One tough dude that will not back down from anybody
    -Can really attack the offensive boards
    -Plays very good, physical defense
    -Can play legit back to the basket PF’s on D, as well as get out on the perimeter and play good on-ball D against wings
    -Ability to play both the 3 & 4 spots
    -Very invested in the “team” over his individual stats.  He plays the right way, and I think his experience in playing on that very successful, and unselfish, Argentinian squad (think 00′s era Pistons) is definitely worth noting.
     
    Nocioni Cons:
    -VERY inconsistent offensively game to game
    -Poor midrange, 10-18 foot jump shooter
    -Will settle for Ginobili-like, awkward, off balance shots (that often do NOT go in)
    -Has a tendency, similar to Iguodala, to make poor decisions when driving the ball in traffic, and to make turnovers when he makes a post move and gets swarmed by a double team (similar to Brand)
    -Is a “sometimes pretty good” and streaky 3 point shooter; in no way is his outside shot reliable
     
    My overall opinion on him – A guy that will become a fan favorite; a guy that will rekindle his career after a miserable stint with the Kings and a very subpar performance his last year and a half with Chicago; a guy that will give us that Reggie Evans-like toughness we’ve been missing that DOES have some legit talent
    …and a guy that will often be inconsistent and frustrating on offense; a player who will sometimes try to do too much when on a losing team; a guy whose excess of hustle-energy can sometimes be a negative, when he rushes things.
     
    Nice player to have, but still don’t like this trade.  I am in the camp that thinks Ed is looking to move Thad with one of our expiring’s to get another prospect, draft pick or veteran.

  112. Dannie says:

    The_Crooked_Man – I really don’t have a ton of time right now to reply to you in as much detail as I would like.

    In short, I watch more basketball than you can imagine – seriously.  I’ve seen Nocioni play for Chicago, Argentina and Sacramento.

    One thing that cracks me up with fans seem to never consider this – if a guy was so good or valuable why hasn’t his previous teams wanted to keep him?  If he was really this tough guy who could defend multiple positions and shoot the ball well (seems like a scarce commodity to me) and is a winner why the hell would the Bulls not want him?  Why has Sacramento been trying to trade him for a year now?

    ALSO, this point holds true for Spencer Hawes as well.  Why in the world would the Kings give us young big with all these “skills” and potential for renting Sam for one season?  And if they resign Sam that tells us another team actually values Sammy over Hawes long-term.

    Nocioni’s playoff numbers:

    Since when did 13.6ppg, 6rpg, 1.4 apg, 44.3% from the field, 37.7% from three, 78.9% from the line, 28.6mpg in 22 playoff games become “absurd?”

    Compare that to Thad’s playoff numbers:

    11.1ppg, 4.5rpg, 1 apg, 46.2% from the field, 35.3% from three, 85% from the line, 32.4mpg in 12 playoff games.

    I fail to see a dramatic difference or what is so special about Nocioni’s numbers.  What is dramatically different is that Nocioni put up those numbers as a 25-27 year old with international pro basketball experience whereas Thad put up his at a 19-20 year old only two years removed from high school.  And as many people already know here, I am not a Thaddeus Young super fan.

    Further, you completely missed the point of my comment anyway.  I didn’t say Thad or Speights would put up significantly more (or any more) production than Nocioni. I said he would take minutes away from two young players the franchise is trying to develop. Minutes under Doug Collins, a coach with a clue about the game, minutes necessary to evaluate whether to keep both kids (Thad is a restricted FA after this season) and if so how much they are worth to the club in terms of contract and years.

    It boggles my mind that ppl are hyping this dude Nocioni up, he’s an average player at best and I believe he is below average for sure.

  113. The_Crooked_Man says:

    Dave T:  Good assessment of Nocioni, and I agree with just about everything you said.  I do admit that I’m partial to players that I see as “Popovich guys,” but I certainly don’t think that getting Nocioni is going to turn this team around in and of itself.  However, Thad has driven me absolutely nuts (can’t defend 3′s, doesn’t rebound as a 4) so I’m ecstatic about having a guy that Collins can at the very least count on to give his all and play lock down D from whatever position he plays every single night.  Before this trade, I was hoping that we’d trade Thad and play Iggy at the 3.  Now, I see Nocioni starting at the 3, and hopefully they trade Iggy to get a defensive center, probably with a pick, and obviously some decent players to match salaries.  Looks like Collins is going to have one hell of a defensive squad to work with, we just have far too many soft centers.  Being as though the offseason just started, I think that will be straightened out before training camp.

  114. The_Crooked_Man says:

    Dannie:  Looks like your post came up while I was responding to Dave T.  I’ll just add a few things.
     
    On his playoff numbers:  You’re right, those are fairly pedestrian, though certainly not “below average.”  Apparently you do watch a lot more basketball than I do, because every time that I saw Nocioni in the playoffs, he was devouring people’s souls; I guess I caught him on his good nights.  I remember him averaging 23-10 against the Celtics a few years ago, and a playoff game awhile back when he had 30 points and 18 rebounds, so I skewed the numbers with my perspective.  However, his numbers are better than Thad’s, in fewer minutes, and he got them from the wing.  Thad’s 4.5rpg were mostly from the 4 spot and you simply can’t win getting that few rebounds from your 4, unless Dwight Howard is your 5.  What I think you’re missing in your comparison is the defense and hustle, which isn’t even comparable between the two.
     
    On Thad’s age and Collins:  I agree that we’ll find out what Thad and Speights truly have under the tutelage of Collins.  I’d like to see Nocioni start at the 3, getting maybe 30 minutes a night, with Thad picking up the other 18, as well as another 18 minutes or so at the 4.  In that scenario, Thad would still be getting the starter’s minutes that he needs to progress.  If Collins can teach him to rebound, and improve his handle, I think he could end up as an Antawn Jamison type of player, which I believe is his ceiling.
     
    On Hawes/Speights:  To me, they seem VERY similar, though I’m not very familiar with Hawes.  They’re both young, soft big men with good offensive skills and no tenacity whatsoever; not my kind of guys.  I’d like to see what Collins can do with ONE of them.  If we package one of them with Iggy (assuming we draft Turner) for a defensive center, then I think the roster will be coming together beautifully.
     
     

  115. Dannie says:

    The_Crooked_Man – I actually don’t want Thad OR Nocioni playing much power forward.  I am actually not a fan of the “stretch PF” who isn’t really a power forward to begin with.  For example – Dirk could be a legit stretch four, Jamison could be as well.  I think stretch PFs are nothing more than legit PFs that can shoot and have ball skills to make plays on the perimeter, not small forwards we stick at PF.

    I think Thad could be an average or slightly above average rebounder as a SF off the bench (I am not a person that thinks he is a starter in this league based on his performance thus far). I think he will always be an underwhelming rebounder when forced to play PF.

    I am not in the camp of trading Iguodala.  I think people underrate his production (I think ppl don’t actually know what production means and therefore underrate players because of that overall).  I want to see Turner, Jrue and Iguodala run for the Sixers for a season and make decisions after that.  If we simply don’t have enough perimeter shooting on the floor to win with those guys playing heavy minutes together that’s fine, but let’s see it, not assume it.  And as Iguodala’s contract gets shorter his value goes up anyway so we shouldn’t be in some big hurry to trade him now before seeing what a solid coach can do with him.

    Nocioni had at an 18-16 (shot horribly in this game 40% from the field), a 25-18 game, a ridiculous 30-6 game where he shot 13-15 from the field in his best playoff series against the Heat in 2008, yes.  So he has had some memorable games.  But the sum of this guy is that of an average player at best both in the regular season and playoffs.  We have not gotten a game changer by any means.  And if Doug Collins can’t manage him well and the team isn’t winning I wouldn’t be surprised to see him start causing problems complaining about playing time (which he did in Sacramento – to the media).

    None the less it will be a different team and that at the very least makes things more interesting (at the beginning) for the Sixers.

     

  116. Dave T says:

    Crooked Man – I understand what you are saying about Nocioni, but a huge negative you haven’t mentioned is his last two years in the league.  Nocioni’s game has REALLY dropped off the past two seasons.  Now, if it was just one season, that could be a fluke, but this guy has really been in a mental funk.
     
    I don’t exactly know every Chicago Bull playoff stat off the top of my head, but I think the vs. the Celtics numbers you are referring to the Celtics ’08 championship team year (I could be off here).  My point is that in that playoffs, I do remember Nocioni having a bounce back, revitalized series, but what you aren’t mentioning is that his 13 pts 6 rbs effort that year in Chicago was when Bulls fans started to turn on the guy (his 4th year in the league)…he was EXTREMELY inconsistant that year in the regular season, which was why people were so surprised he had some great playoff games out of no where.  One game they’d get a tough nosed defender that played team ball on offense, the next game a guy who would shoot up too many jumpers, think he was a star and shoot all kinds of nutty shots, and sometimes get killed on defense by legitimate power forwards.
     
    The two years after that (08-09, 09-10) Nocioni really tailed off even more, IMO just a mental thing with him, and I think for one of the seasons (I think the 08-09) he was injured a bit and while he played a lot, wasn’t at 100%).  I personally think right now is a great time to get a player like this…I think this change of scenery and consistent playing time (which I think he will get under Collins…I just hope it’s around the 20 mpg mark and not more) will do Nocioni some good and get some bounce back in his step.
     
    I also think it’s worth noting that there is a difference between a “tough, hard nosed player” that plays good defense…and an excellent defender. Nocioni isn’t  a show stopping, all NBA defense type talent, and he is in the former category, not the latter.  This is not a guy that will often put the clamps on people and just shut them down…but he does play good team defense within a coach’s system, and will not back down and actually hustle, two things we are in desperate need of in this locker room.
     
    Dannie – You made two comments I am right on board with:
    1.  That, when evaluating trades, it’s important to look at the opposite team’s mindset in trading guys….that there are reasons the Kings wanted to get rid of a guy like Hawes (most teams would never want to readily trade a “skilled big” period, let alone one that they’ve been working with as a project for two years), etc.
     
    2.  That we need to NOT trade Iguodala, and give a Jrue / Turner / Iggy at the 1-2-3 combo an entire year to evaluate how they play under a good coach.  I agree and think that’s essential…this should be our year of patience to sit back and evaluate.  We can shore up our hodgepodge frontcourt mess later via draft, tweak signings or trades, but now is the time to see what Iguodala can do under a legitimate coach and with another young, athletic buck like Turner coming in.

  117. tk76 says:

    Yes, Nocioni had a great playoff series in 2005/6 when he was age 26.
     
    But this year is the 2010/11 season, so he is 5 years older and not nearly the guy at 31 as he was at 26.
     
    Nocioni reminds me of Matt Harpring.  Tough and aggressive can be part of being a good defender.  But you can also just be like a YMCA hack.

  118. RRose says:

    Shocked Nocioni is getting so much burn on here.. IMO he’s much better than Carney, Jason Smith, Reggie Evans, and bigger than Willie Green. If Collins decides to give him any of the minutes those guys got on a regular basis I’m all for it.  A change in attitude is what I thought both ES and Collins was going for.  If we are truly hoping Nocioni is the best part of that trade and he’s looked upon as saving the team I’m in for another long season. 

    Veteran toughness if he adds that with some offensive skills is welcomed. More than 20 minutes a game for him means something is wrong. I do think however Hawes at 7 rebs a game, Nocioni about 4-5 rebs a game will be more than adequate.  Having 5 guys on the floor to defend will make up help this team drastically.  With Sam it was like playing 5 on 4. 

    I’m officially hoping they make a splash, trade down and pick up another first rounder. Take Wesley Johnson. I changed my mind. His game is similar to Danny Granger. 

  119. tk76 says:

    Nocioni will publicly complain if he gets less than 20 minutes per game.  He complained in the press last year when he averaged 20 min/game and said how he wanted to go back to play in Europe.
     
    Hard to be a positive, tough vet presence if you are whining.
     
    Nocioni was a decent, hard nosed defender 4 years ago.  But with his bad feet he now reminds me more of that guy at the YMCA in knee pads and head band who thinks he is a great defender because he hacks everyone.

  120. Tony says:

    On the Dan Patrick Show, Reggie Miller said that Evan Turner will turn out to be better than John Wall.
     
    “So that’ll be easier for Evan Turner. But being a combo guard, being able to play two positions and being in Doug Collins’ system, I think Evan Turner will be the better player in the long run. And he’s my Rookie of the Year.”

    Read More:http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/danpatrick/blog/116501/#ixzz0rXyZVjVq
    Get a free NFL Team Jacket and Tee withSI Subscription

  121. tk76 says:

    Here is an article breaking down Hawes’s defense.  And fair to say it “breaks down” pretty easily.
    http://www.sactownroyalty.com/2010/5/13/1470387/grading-spencer-hawess-defense
     
    The Kings fans opinions of him in the comments are particularly scathing- especially about his (arrogant) attitude and (lack of) work ethic.  The most troubling being that he only talks a good game about working on his game and hitting the gym.
     
    I can only hope that Hawes will be more successful and better received on the Sixers.  The guy has talent and size, but come with huge red flags about his attitude and work ethic.
     
    Of note, according to synergy Hawes was about the worst defender against isolation and in the Post in the entire NBA.

  122. jjg says:

    TK76,  Let me interject:  a eulogy is good form prior to a burial.  Thanks to you, Sixers have their new slogan:  Spend Nights With Our New Living Dead. 

  123. RRose says:

    A 22 yr old kid with offensive talent at 7 ft can be taught with good coaching how to perform better.  A 8 year veteran set in his ways with no desire to get better, with a bad attitude was not worth keeping. If Hawes was coming out in the draft now he’d be a top 10 pick even with his defensive limitations.

  124. Dannie says:

    “A soft 22 yr old kid with some offensive talent at 7ft that doesn’t defend or rebound well and has yet to show any sort of inherent work ethic to improve his game and defied his previous team by refusing to play in summer league can be taught with good coaching how to perform better, maybe, but not likely.”

    RRose - Fixed your post

  125. RRose says:

    I liked that.  Well unless he gets traded in 48 hours he’ll more than likely be the starting center on our 76ers.    Let us revisit your fixing of my post come December of this year.  If he’s more than adequate a player and is contributing nicely we both will have to give the Sixers some credit for pulling that deal off.  If not, shoe will be planted firmly in mouth.

  126. Dannie says:

    RRose - Just having a little fun.

    Honestly, I always hope for the best.  I want things to work out for this team.  But I just don’t see it.

    I have serious concerns with a franchise, a GM and a coach that immediately start talking about and touting a defense-first approach then quickly turn around and trade our only front court defender for someone considered by many to be one of, if not the worse defensive center in the entire NBA.  Then quickly start talking about how great the offense will be and that we will have to rebound by committee.

    That doesn’t seem to add up for me.  Though I hope it adds up well for the Sixers.

    Time will tell.

    The other thing I don’t quite understand is why do people talk about how Sam didn’t improve or change, yet think Hawes will?

  127. The Real Rob says:

    The Sixers appear to have an interest in signing Brian Scalabrine.  And I ask, why?  Can he be the Scal of old?    He would probably be the last person to sign to fill a roster. 
    http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AlE7.D9hlwBP2xOgKUmmbkC8vLYF?slug=aw-draftbuzz062210

  128. jjg says:

    Dannie,  That wasn’t said about Dalembert at 22.  He was given a lot of money and a lot of leeway by the organization, but he didn’t develop much as a player due to lack of genuine interest and his own laxity; he approached his profession like it was beach volleyball.  Antonyms  
    of Sam as it pertains to basketball:  serious, passionate, committed, 
    evolving, cooperative, consistent.  Synonym:  gone [easily justifiable]. 

    Hawes at 22:  possibilities of growth, at least.  Especially so if you’ve 
    entered the ‘Collins, Mastermind’ camp.  Sunnyside up for the fresh egg.             

  129. Dave T says:

    Real Rob – Just saw the same thing on RealGM and was about to come on here and post the link.  You beat me to the punch!
     
    If it is in ANY way true that we are pursuing Scalabrine…my couch will get a few punches of frustration later on today.  You can find better players to fill out the 13th – 15th men than Scal.

  130. jjg says:

    Veal, undercooked lately on Cs.  Has a taste for the game.  They say he adds meat to team concept. 

  131. Dannie says:

    JJG - My point was that the parallels between Sam at 22 and Hawes at 22 are there and ppl need not ignore that.

    BOTH players showed a “lack of genuine interest and laxity” as young players.  Now of course Sam continued.  Time will tell on Hawes.

    So my point is why then are ppl optimistic that Hawes will change when he has already started showing similar lax qualities and a bad approach to his profession when Sammy did not?

    Seems a bit too convenient for my taste.  But feel free to sip the Koolaid.

  132. RRose says:

    One consideration on my part is Sam didn’t come into the NBA with any offensive tools at all.  He thus spent 8 years in the league not trying to get better but seemed to run from the opportunity.  Moses Malone tutoring, Big man’s camp, Canadian Olympic disaster.. Hawes at least comes in with a decent skill set.  But he also has to want to learn and get better at his craft.  So the jury is still out on him.  But that old saying can’t teach old dogs new tricks.  Meet Sammy the Snouzer.

  133. Dannie says:

    A lot of players don’t come into the league with offensive tools and this is occurring more and more as players are younger, especially bigs.  Favors is dropping in mock drafts because his skill set is really lacking.  Doesn’t mean he won’t be a contributor or productive basketball player as a defender and board man.  That’s what Sam is, for whatever reason ppl didn’t want to accept that was his strengths and his role.  People wanted him to become and offensive force when that simply wasn’t his game.

    Hawes didn’t come into the league with any defensive ability or grit to rebound his position.  You can try to teach it to him.  And quite frankly if he wasn’t such a baby with a sour work ethic I would think he could develop on that end.  But like Sammy, he has not shown that in the first three years in the league.  Hopefully Collins can turn him around.

    Also, Sam improved his free throw shooting dramatically from his first 3 years through the rest of his career.

    He puts the ball in the hole more efficiently than Hawes does (the guy with all this offensive talent) and that even considering 3pt shoots (check their eFG% and TS% numbers), Sam shoots free throws better, he clearly defends and rebounds better.  The only thing Hawes does better is pass.

    At the end of the day for me the arguments surrounding this trade are really just people that strongly don’t like Sam. That’s fine, but when you look at the facts there is really no argument that can be made that the Sixers got better via this deal OR that they even got the best player (currently) in the deal.

  134. jjg says:

    Dannie  So your final question of post 26 was only rhetorical, one posed to make a point and provoke thought?  I see.  If I didn’t respond with authenticity of opinion, then I’m sipping your Kool-Aid.  You don’t want LemmingsGM. 

    My point:  Dalembert earned Philadelphia’s censure and dismissal; even asked for it.  Hawes hasn’t been seen here; deserves a chance. 

    Big gap in your Sam/Hawes 22 parallel:  one started playing the game very late (mid-teens); one was raised by an NBA father (that gives him a natural boost in the business, reason would say).  I’m certain there are other differences in individual constitution.  Am neutral on Hawes as a player until I watch him play, as it should be.  If he’s soft or too slow or unmotivated, that’ll become evident soon enough.

    What exactly is too convenient for your taste?  A difference of opinion? 

     

  135. Dannie says:

    It’s convenient to tout Hawes (without much backing) just because of a dislike for Dalembert.  I don’t care all that much that they traded Sam.  But it bothers me a bit when people comment about this trade like the Sixers got the better end of the deal when on paper (and to date that all we have to work with) that isn’t the case.

    End of the day we got a worse player in Hawes who in 3 years has already shown a similar poor work ethic and lack of commitment to his profession as Dalembert.  So what did we really gain here?  Less Dalembert complaining, worse on court performance.

  136. The Real Rob says:

    Dannie– Dei Lynam currently has an online chat on CSN.com.  Check it out:
    http://www.csnphilly.com/pages/chat

  137. jjg says:

    Dannie,  Touting means strong praise.  Only thing I touted was the move - simply for its ‘addition by subtraction’ effect.  Forget the incoming players, whom I haven’t touted (!), only said keep an open mind about for they may help.  You seem especially sensitive and disputatious about Sam and criticism of him, beyond what his basketball attributes and Philadelphia “accomplishments” would normally garner.  In that respect, you are a proven Sam Dalembert fanatic.  To each his own.  

  138. Dave T says:

    JJG – I think the “addition by subtraction” idea is a good one that can often help…but not for our team, with our particular players, right now.  A natural “subtraction” would have been coming anyway: Dalembert’s contract ending.  If we had done nothing this year, he would:
     
    -Have not been a member of our team any longer, giving us $11 in cap space (which I think is overrated, but still a plus)
    -Likely used by Collins with greater consistency, leading to a bit of an upswing with how he is perceived around the league (aka: an ok guy to rent at the trade deadline for 2 months of solid defensive basketball), which could have been used in a trade to nab slightly better talent.
     
    The question I like to ask is this – Say we had our entire roster intact, and no Nocioni or Hawes, and with that saved money.  Would you, as a GM, want to go out of your way to then take $10 million dollars, and spend 7 of it on Nocioni, and 2-3 of it on Hawes, straight up?  I know I wouldn’t want to spend $7 million dollars on a role player (a tough, hard nosed one, but one that is aging and way too expensive).  I’d think about signing Hawes to a cheap, short contract at $2-3 million per to see how he pans out.
     
    But I wouldn’t go out of my way to acquire either one.  With this trade, we went out of our way to do so. Let’s face it, this year the Sixers aren’t doing a damn thing.  With Sam, without Sam.  With Turner, without Turner, with Brand playing better or not.  We aren’t in contention for a championship (obviously)…it’s aiming HIGH to have us in contention for the playoffs.  In a year where the most important thing is to judge how valuable our own young players are…why saddle us with two more years of contracts?
     
    This is a sideways move that honestly is 50/50 for whether it will even help us in the brief short term.   Why anyone would make a sideways move that ADDS an extra year’s contract to our salary cap is beyond me.

  139. deepsixersuede says:

    Dannie, what type of 4 and 5 would you put with Turner, Holliday and Iggy?  It seems Collins feels there has to be one or both that can step away from the basket.  This trade, to me, is taking a shot on a guy, like Meeks, that somebody [Deleo?] possibly liked in the draft recently.  It is better than letting Sammy walk ,in my opinion, and if he doesn!t work out probably leads to more losses and a better piece in next years draft. 

    It is kind of weird that today on e.s.p.n. radio Collins began talking about the trade with 5 minutes on Nucioni and talking about Hawes as an afterthought. He told Stefanski, at his prehiring interview at his house, that Nucioni was the type of player needed here. He also said Iggy isn!t going anywhere.

  140. Dave T says:

    Suede – Not sure how you’re inferring a shot on Meeks from Collins comment?  (Meeks being a backup SG…you seem to be talking about 4/5 position?)
     
    I don’t think coming up with “the right fit” of 4/5 spots to a Holiday/Turner/Iguodala 1-2-3 is different than any other team.  For me, at least, an ideal pairing of bigs is one that includes the following traits:
     
    -Someone to be able to hit a midrange jumper
    -Someone that has legit back to the basket post game
    -Someone that is a bruiser/rebounder/old school banger
    -Someone that has good IQ
    -Someone that sets screens well
    -Someone that is enough of a threat on offense to warrant a double teams, and know how to pass out of a double team
    -Someone that is a good shot blocker that can protect the rim
     
    …to me it doesn’t matter whether the 4 or the 5 has which one of these traits as long as all are covered.  I tend to like combinations of opposites…i.e. if you have Amare on your team (an offensive wrecking ball within 10 feet of the basket, can hit a J, overpower you in the post, but very weak defense) you want a primarily defensive/rebounding big to go with him…like a Dalembert (except hopefully minus the being an idiot part)

  141. deepsixersuede says:

    DaveT., I just wonder if they liked Hawes the year he came out like they liked Meeks last year and went after him.

  142. Dave T says:

    Suede – Gotcha, just wasnt understanding.
     
    Speaking of Meeks, I really think we have a nice little gem in him.  I know I’ve gone on record probably one too many times for my own good last year about how I thought Meeks should have been an automatic 1st round pick in the 20′s, but I just can’t say enough about his junior year at Kentucky.  He was a ballsy scorer, literally hoisted the team on his back when P Patterson went down, and was just lights out from 3 point territory.  Only problem is he’s very one dimensional…he’s the definition of a scorer, and that’s it.  Mediocre defense.  But I’d love to see him earn some legit time this year.
     
    Bucks – Just traded for Maggette from G-State, gave up Gadzuric and Charlie Bell.
     
    Heat – Reportedly looking to “sell” their 18th pick to free up some more cap space.  This is one of those “a source says” headlines, but given that they need to penny pinch to free up two max-contract slots in free agency, that could be true.  And if so, the Sixers should be all over that.  I would LOVE to draft Turner, then take a project big (Soloman Alabi) or a tough, backup SF that has a good shooting touch.

  143. deepsixersuede says:

    Some of these rumours; Portland turned down Batum for #4 pick? That can!t be true.  Flynn, #16 and #23 turned down by Indiana for #10 pick; what isn!t said is Hibbert, Rush or Hansbrough would have to go to match Flynn!s salary. 

    DaveT., you!ll  get a kick outta this; on draft special on n.b.a. tv last night it was said during a front office meeting [Timberwolves] that Milicic was referred to as the only player on their roster that could play on a contending team.  Sounds like #16 may get Memphis !s last 2 first rounders, what is Kahn thinking?

  144. Dave T says:

    Haha I don’t think anyone will know what the hell Kahn will do…I can’t say how excited I am to see how Minny / NJ / Memphis all play their draft nights via picks and possible shake-up trades, should be interesting.
     
    Question for everyone out there: Curious how many people think another trade with us will be coming, involving either Thad, Speights, Lou and/or the W Green/Kapono expiring’s?

  145. The Greek says:

    JJG, your the man.  We’re 2 sixer fans who are bonded by there dislike of Sammy aka the Thief who robbed the Sixers of 62 million.   You should also post on depressedfan.com, could never hurt to hear what the other sixer fans are saying right.

  146. tk76 says:

    I know I’ve been slamming Hawes, and it is justified.
     
    That said, maybe a trade and playing in a contract year is just what is needed for the light to come on.  he says the right things and knows what needs to be done… he just needs to back up those words.
     
    The consensus amongst Kings fans was that Hawes is not a lost cause, but hope was fading fast.  An although he will never be a plus defender, he could develop into an asset on the floor if he gets his head on straight.
     
    Yes, that is reminiscent of other former Sixer headaches, but another players failure does and 3 bad years in the league from 19-22 does not mean he can’t turn it around and achiev.  it just means we need to have tempered expectation and don’t be surprised if he is a one year experiment.  But if he does work out, it will be a great move.

  147. C-Bent says:

    Bottom line here is Sam was our only rebounder and now he is gone.   Where are the rebounds gonna come from now?  Someone tell me that?  Brand?  If he gets back to his old self which is unlikely.  Hawes?  6.1 last year wasn’t too good.  Smith, Speights, or Thad?  Um, no.  Iggy and Turner will probably lead us in rebounds this year and that is not a good thing.

  148. C-Bent has it right. Where will rebounds and interior D come from?
    The answer might take a little while.
    If the 76ers have a strategy, here is what it might/should look like:
    1. It will take about three years for the 76ers to have a chance to compete. So, anyone who is about 30 years old and gets paid a lot shouldn’t be on the team. If he is, wait until his expiring contract becomes desirable and then maybe trade him.
    2. Evaluate draft prospects, future free agent possibilities and possible trades on the basis of the three-year plan and the need for bigs who can play at both ends of the floor.
    Main point: build a team that can compete in three years or less. That will require bigs who can flat out play. Figure out how to add them–and make them young–fast.
    Richard