I’m not recapping that series or previewing the next (except that Joey Votto is going to make Charlie look even more stupid), but I have 2 questions for discussion during this series.
- Jayson Werth is being tossed around in trade talks. If the Phillies have decided they are not going to re-sign him, do you think we should trade him and what would be an acceptable return for you?
- Shane Victorino criticizing fans for criticizing him – what is your stance?
And…go…
Point 2 – On Shane, don’t care about it, side issue with far greater issues at hand. If it’s used as a motivational tool , for the club, it’s a good thing.
On Jayson…if he’s going to be moved, I want quality for him. Not measured by his somewhere between anemic and mediocore performance the last few weeks, save for a handful of exceptions. A fresh start might be good for him, and he could tear the cover off the ball, and that’s the basis by which I’d like to see any deal. Do I want to see him moved? I’d listen but patiently. I’d like to keep him, but I want value which might not be in the cards.
I’ll throw one prospective deal out there without checking salary and contract sense to it, which is ridiculous, but…
we get Mike Lowell and Bard or Pappelbon, they get JW and Lidge. Figure out what to do with Lowell after the next few weeks later, but he’d be a help now. They are giving up a lot with the reliever since Jayson is a free agent, but he’s a player. I don’t know that they have a starter that they would part with that we’d want. Change of scenery might be good for Paps, and his contract is real close to what Brad’s is from memory.
On the upcoming set with the Reds. If we split, but the Mets do some good work against the Braves, it’s under the circumstances a good wayc to get into the break. As to what will happen, you have to pick, you go Reds 3 of 4.
1. If they decide they are not going to re-sign Werth, Does that mean get all they can get (prospects, starting pitchers,2b/3b, or whatever) and bring up Dombro? Is it to early to bring him up. Probably. Do I care? no really. I think the more seasoning he gets the better. I am a little skeptical after seeing Mike Stanton struggle. he was even more hyped then Dombro and his numbers aren’t real impressive right now 94 AB / 4 HR / .223 AVG / 19 RBI / 13 R / 3 SB.
I mean is that really what we need? two Raul Ibanez’s and Victorino? I’m not saying that is what Dombro is going to do but hey just precedent. I mean for all we know he could be the next heyward, and even Heyward is only batting .251. So when you bring up these youngsters, your not always gonna get the production you want.
2. As for Victorino — Don’t wake a sleeping giant and that giant is 610 WIP. I don’t need to hear Eskin rant about how your a bum, just keep your mouth shut, this is what happens when you dont win – people complain
WHY OH WHY did RAJ have to give Ibanez that 3rd year??
KB-
Lowell and Paps (I can’t imagine they would deal Bard) for Werth and Lidge is very intriguing. Well done.
Lowell and Werth and both FA’s next year. Paps and Lidge are both under contract for one more year.
Money kind of matches up – we might have to throw in a prospect to make the 2011 aspect work. But Werth is a Red Sox type of player (takes walks, plays good defense, runs well).
Angelo-
I agree that Dom might not be the immediate fix people think he will be.
I disagree that anyone, anywhere, ever, under any circumstances, should listen to 610. Sports are supposed to be fun – and they drain the fun right out of it and turn it into hate to fill their pockets with marketing monies. I haven’t listened to 610 in 9 years.
I missed whatever Victorino was complaining about. Can someone fill me in, please?
Votto is going to make Charlie look dumb. But i can’t blame Charlie, he’s a homer. So what? Plus Votto can still make it with the fan vote.
If it doesn’t improve this years squad, I would prefer them not to make a trade.
As far as I’m concerned, starting pitching has been perfectly fine. (Team ERA of just over 4) I’m not going to worry about Blanton or Kendrick or Moyer or Hamels or Happ. The team keeps blowing quality starts.
I’m more concerned with the offense. (4.75 runs per game) But they’ve been dealing with injuries and have not been consistent.
Don’t trade anyone. Stop sucking. It’s that simple. The best thing they could do (albeit impossible) is trade Ibanez (and eat some of his salary) to a team in need of a lefty bat with a abundance of relievers. Ibanez for a more reliable middleman would be nice.
I wanted to add something really trivial and unreliable to your Phils awareness regarding the broadcasting that we’ve discussed.
I had occasion to speak to someone in the Phil’s office today. The conversation is not relaiable. But I tried to get some perspective and asked about feedback on the broadcasters. I said I don’t want to pry, but do you get a lot of positive feedback on the Franzke-LA team in a way that vocal inflection should have suggested I was seperating radio fron tv. When I was told yes, I followed up with verification to make as sure as I could that what I was actually asking was understood. The only potential fact I might dare take away from that is that a representative number of the fan base is taking the trouble to express what seems quite unanimous on this site.
But Werth is a Red Sox type of player (takes walks, plays good defense, runs well).>>
Running well and stealing bases are largely sperate entities, but our running game is off for a variety of reasons, somewhat obvious, somewhat maybe its a way to manufacture runs. Not that Werth should run like Juan Pierre, but he’s got 4 steals this year. 20 last year.
Pete -
your hatred for WIP is intriguing. haha
I don’t see how Lowell helps turn things around, specially when he won’t have a role on a playoff push cause he can’t stay in the field. I would rather have Werth’s bat then Lowell’s. And while i might prefer Paps to Lidge, I think Paps has been slightly less dominant over the last year and a half. His stuff is slowing down. In the immediate future (before Chase returns) that trade would make sense, as soon as Chase comes back, I don’t think i would be happy with that trade. Lowell would only have value if he was getting at bats as an everyday third baseman. And I don’t think he is physically able to be an everyday third baseman anymore.
Jake,
We have to stop the bleeding. We’re not up 6 games. We’re behind 2 clubs. We got 3 hits in 11 innings the other night whith I guess Ransom z has been okay, but we need a batand Valdez in the lineup. And I know Valdez has been ok, but put Plac at 2B, and with that nine, we get more than 3 hits, maybe 1 is timely, and we’re 5 back. When you’r chasing, to an extent, you gotta live for today.
1: Trade Werth for the Geico caveman, who would show even more attitude walking back to the dugout after habitual Ks. Upgrade in entertainment.
2: Shane. A pretty good player, a pretty bad mayor. A street fighter with a patrician’s paycheck (5 mil this yr, 7.5 mil in ’11, 9 mil in ’12). Do not place him on the winter ‘meet & greet the fans’ touring bus.
I can’t stand some of the WIP Hosts (mainly Cataldi and Eskin), but I really enjoy Macnow/Gargano and Rob Ellis.
Does Seattle really think they can get more for Lee than they gave the Phillies? Amaro really messed that deal up. A two month rental gets more than a full season? Come one, that’s ridiculous. When will people realize Amaro is not that great a GM – we made it back to the WS last year with Gillick’s team. Lidge deal was horrible and given too early for way too much money. He outbid himself for Ibanez. Abreu signed for 1 year and $5M and Ibanez gets $31.5M for 3 years in the middle of the Great Recession. I am fine with Polanco – though again he probably overpaid or went too many years. We will lose Werth and our one power right handed bat because of the Raul deal. We let Chan Ho go for no reason. We overpaid for Ryan Howard for no reason whatsoever and will regret that deal in a few years, if not already. What positive things has Ruben done? I’ve hated the Cliff Lee from day one. There really is not much I have liked. Yes, you want a competitive team in the long run but have we learned anything from the Eagles? Long-term success without championships will not satisfy the fans.
I would be OK with a Werth for Papelbon deal straight up.
As for Vic – he has been one of the more frustrating guys on the team this year. But he’s not a guy that is going to start not trying or something. I think he is already in a bad mood and just let something get to him. Hopefully he gets a good reception tonight.
adam -
the prospects being thrown around in a Lee deal (Smoak, Montero, etc…) are far better than anyone we got back. I would be super pissed if a huge prospect goes for him.
I love the two schools of thought——Don’t trade anyone. Stop sucking. It’s that simple., expressed by Jake, and When you’re chasing, to an extent, you gotta live for today, expressed by Ken——both of which have merit.
I mean, as upset as I am at Amaro for not immediately getting a 2B/3B replacement, I tend to agree with him when he says that the guys we have need to play better. Seeing the backups, and the backups to the backups, outperform the core players serves to validate this point of view.
That said, we are behind, we need to catch up, and we don’t seem to have what we need to do it. It’s all well and good for Amaro to take a hard line and issue a challenge to the team he has assembled, but how far is he willing to take it? This team is built to win now. Is Amaro willing to let this season slip away to make a point? To send a message? Tough love? This hurts me more than it hurts you? If the club is not good enough to win as is, isn’t it incumbent upon him to try to improve the club?
We have struggled over each of the past few seasons. Different reasons for it each year but it has happened every year. We’ve been at least a bit lucky that the rest of the division did not catch up to us, until now that is. We have been and appear to be a low-90s win club. It was good enough but it does not appear that it will be going forward.
I know making a move does not guarantee improvement or that we’ll make a run and overtake the Braves and the Mets this year. Health is obviously a huge issue that is wreaking havoc this year, although even with that I think we’d still be getting a run for our money. Amaro has got to do something to try to improve the club (even if it is mostly with an eye toward next year) because we now find ourselves looking up at two teams in our division and chances are we will need to get better (not just return to health) to stay ahead of them.
Who knows, maybe 2010 is to this current run of success what 1979 was to our last run.
Votto didn’t waste any time, did he?
The Cincinnati Reds played as the Cincinnati Redlegs from 1954-1959 due to political winds of “The Red Scare”/McCarthyism/nation’s fear of communist infiltration. Then, the 1960 administrators of the “Queen City” baseball club returned the shorter ‘Reds‘ moniker, daftly precipitating the Cuban Missile Crisis. Suffice it to say, JFK was a Red Sox fan.
Of course it was all started by the darlings of 1882, the Cincinnati Red Stockings, who sported pitcher Will White, deliverer of 480 innings, 52 complete games, a 40-12 W-L record and a 1.54 ERA. Now that’s bringing home the bacon!
Found a tweet from Buster Olney about the Phils trading Werth:
Heard this: The Phillies are casting a wide net and talking with a lot of teams about possible matches for Jayson Werth. They continue to look for a proven starting pitcher who could be a #2 or #3 type of guy.
Nice to see Shane get it right back.
What he said doesn’t concern me either. I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt and say that frustration got the better of him. Plus, Shane is one of the guys who have given us the best run of success in franchise history (or what should prove to be by the time it ends). I appreciate what they have done and will cut them some slack and continue showing support even if this year doesn’t turn out like the last few.
Ubaldo keeps on rolling. Another great start and he’s now 15-1.
Looks like Dino has a direct line to Charlie.
Pulling Kendrick after 6 2/3 even though he has only thrown 73 pitches, has been cruising along, and his only blemish was Votto’s HR in the 1st inning.
Turn those numbers around and you nearly got yourself a Frank Sullivan, Phils ’61, 3-16 … end-of-the-roader whose wheels often came off.
Charlie knew he blew it last night. Media is soft on him. Not being the brightest bulb, tonight he goes to the other extreme, pulls Hendrick early. Watch out, 6 outs for this bullpen is treacherous going.
Here we go, Ryan Madson is back on the mound.
At least he’ll toe the rubber.
Holy smokes, better remove every chair from the clubhouse, pronto!
A sacrifice fly. How novel. Finally got a runner home from 3rd. Now we need a repeat of Tuesday night from Lidge.
its funny how a sac fly is a cause for so much celebration.
just shows how bad phils are
here we go…
So much for that. Lidge better get out of this with the game tied. Back to anger management for me, Ken.
b.ski: i’m in the dalai lama zone now.
not miffed at all
strange what happens when you expect the worst.
Ibanez, Howard: looked liked crap.
Werth has to take 2-0 on a new pitcher.
Warning: I’m going to start cursing. A lot.
This is team is playing like a bunch of fucking amateurs right now. I can stand slumps and poor starts here and there, but they should all be embarrassed right now.
Between Brian Schneider’s inability to catch a fucking baseball, Ryan Madson (coming off a 2-month hiatus for kicking a chair) following him like a dog when he should be covering home, Ryan Howard thinking that people are actually going to throw him fucking fastballs in a tie game in the bottom of the ninth and swinging at balls not even close to the strike zone (TAKE A GOD DAMN WALK), Charlie Manuel being stupid enough to trot Lidge out there AGAIN and Juan Castro getting thrown out by 15 feet WITH NO OUTS IN A TIE FUCKING GAME IN THE BOTTOM OF THE 10th, followed by the actual retard Tom McCarthy saying “he’s not that fast, I guess they were trying to catch them by surprise!” like he’s a fucking Mets fan – I’m going to lose my mind.
I don’t care if we win this game – this team needs to get their shit together immediately and at the very least play smart.
As I type, Tom McCarthy: “that was a fastball, but with a lot of really late movement on it” – or as smart people call it – a fucking slider.
Better at-bats that inning.
Need a full Nelson here.
jkay,
You’d better help Pete out and get him in that Dalai Lama zone with you.
Either we win this game now or we keep Figueroa in there as long as we need to until we win it, as I’d rather stay away from Herndon and I want no part of Baez in this game.
Whaddayaknow? A win is a win and we need every one we can get but I can’t bring myself to feel good about it.
YES! Thank you Schneider!!!
LEBRONS A HEAT? ( wait that doesn’t make sense)
LBJ is going to South Beach wtf
A no-doubter for Mr. Schneider, dedicated to Ryan Madson & Brad Lidge. We had ‘em all the way! Nice job, Nelson.
Heroes of the game: Kendrick ($480K), Schneider ($1 mill) and Figueroa ($416K)
Jayson Werth showed his true colors in aftermath of father’s catch for son. Disgraceful. Please ship the ham, Ruben.
Good thing we didn’t have a Philadelphia Bartman moment when the Phils’ fan in right field foul territory snagged the ball away from Werth. You could tell the guy’s 12 year old son was just about ready to walk home from the game after that happened.
The father wasn’t Steve Bartman. He stood up, caught the fly ball that landed IN HIS SPACE for his kid. If Phillies had lost, it wouldn’t have been the father’s fault. The son should remain proud of his dad. Self-absorbed Jayson Werth should pound sand.
re: jjg #42: ‘We had ‘em all the way!’ - lol
on to the next game.
jjg: to me its all about the game. you want souvenirs, go and hang out around the batting cages.
if there’s a play on the ball, leave it alone.
father’s action is understandable.
but Werth is not wrong.
….had the next pitch left the ballpark, someone would he hearing it from the crowd.
First, I would not trade Werth. We should not be sellers. We still can easily represent the NL in the WS. We are only 2.5 games out of wild card and less in the loss column. It is freakin early July. We need offense, if anything, and I think Werth has another hot streak in him this year.
I have no problem with what Victorino said. These guys need to show some emotion to perhaps snap out of the funk. Whatever it takes.
jkay, I see viewpoint but the father wouldn’t hear a peep from me. He took nothing but the moment of a foul ball landing on top of him. Yes, an athlete is geared to strive, wants to make plays, wants his team to win. But when a chip doesn’t fall his way, he should be a man about it. Dwight Evans would’ve handled it differently. Or any rightfielder with a greater perspective for that matter. Humility works. And mob voice
renders little prudence in matters of judgement; that the crowd would speak only speaks of the crowd.
On Shane’s comments…I was at the game that resulted in his comments, sitting near Shane. There were 2 really loud and really drunk guys that were getting on him a whole lot for no reason. I’m sure it had something to do with it. It’s no excuse but it is a reason.
omission: insert “your” between ‘see’ and ‘viewpoint’
I liked the comment about the Dalai Lama zone. Realized my reactions were similar. I hadn’t turned the game on but a guest asked to see what the score was. When I saw that it was 2-1 in the eighth, I stuck around to watch. I didn’t get excited when they blew it in the eighth or in the ninth. When Schneider hit it out, I hadn’t the slightest visible reaction. I still do not think that this is a particularly good team (except on paper), despite the outcome. I would love to be proven wrong.
Does anyone else get irritated by the flashbacks to 2008 or 2009, when the player about to bat (usually in a slump) hits one out (in the flashback, of course) and Mc Carthy gets excited as if it has any meaning other than our fond memories. Tom, nobody gives the proverbial feces. Or, with the team down 7-8 runs, you have the New York Life ad showing a player crossing the plate / sliding into second and have to hear that they are “safe” with NY Life. This ad might work if the team is winning, but plays very poorly when they are getting buried.
While I have little to no faith in either Baez or Hernden, b. ski’s comment about those two reversed my feelings about them. I am always cringing when the former starts to throw, but when Hernden appears, I usually feel Charlie has either 1) no one else left, or 2) is throwing in the towel. Is there any other pitcher around who is getting hit to the tune of .350 or so? Amazing. Just amazing. He is like a player with a batting title in reverse.
Re the father / Werth incident: both reactions were natural. The father went for the ball like most would, and I don’t blame him, and Werth, wanting the out, was pissed, understandably so in my opinion. It was heat, in the moment; it had nothing to do with lack of humility. Would that he would react similarly when he watches that third strike go right down the middle of the chute with a man on third, as it so often does these days .
Joel Sherman article headline, NY Post, 7/9/10: Yankees on brink of landing Cliff Lee. Reportedly, deal would include sending top prospect Jesus Montero (catcher) to Seattle, a player offering that Phillies turned down when in process of moving Lee in off-season.
When will people realize Amaro is not that great a GM – we made it back to the WS last year with Gillick’s team.>>
That’s from Adam. And no disrespect, but a post that is totally subjective, and has an absolutely major flaw. While some good points are made, and I’ll pass on defending RAJ here, but how can you write an opinion about Amaro’s work and not include acquiring Halladay, even if for some odd reason, you didn’t like the deal? Just my opinion, nothing personal at all.
Also, Joel Sherman has a headline piece in the New York Post this morning on the Yanks getting very active in the Lee talks. This deal, if, and I emphasize the word if may open up for a trade involving the Yanks and Phils. Consider that Javy Vasquez was quite good in our division last year, and even when he pitches like Chrsity Mathewson, Phil Hughes gets jerked around. He’ll go to the pen and they’ll move Joba.
Frankly, if you read the article, there is really nothing telling to support the headline of the Yanks and M’s being on the brink of a deal, and my guess is that if it does go down, it’s not before Jack Z is on the phone driving up the desperate Rangers if not 1-2 other clubs. But Joel Sherman is a credible baseball source.
B.ski mentioned Ubaldo getting hois 15th win. First good outing in the last 3 starts or so. If you look out of the corner of the eye in the back of your head, you can keep an eye on Adam Wainright who might wind up providing some degree of competition before the Young vote is final. Doc, Josj Johnson and Adam are long shots, but are alive.
Hopefully that is just a smoke screen to get the Rangers and Twins to up their offers for Lee.
Meanwhile, one of the guys we got for Lee made his first start in Clearwater since being demoted last night, Phillippe Aumont.
6 IP, 4 H, 2 ER, 2 BB, 13 K
The 13K’s are very promising at least… and at 21, being in Clearwater isn’t a bad thing.
9:35am: The Lee-Yankees deal is “just about done,” an executive involved in the negotiations tells ESPN.com’s Buster Olney ( Twitter link). An official with a team interested in Lee tells Ed Price of AOL FanHouse that the Mariners appear to be negotiating exclusively with the Yankees (Twitter link).
Found this update on mlbtraderumors. Sounds like more than just a negotiating tactic.
Also found this about Werth:
The Yankees, Red Sox and Rays have told the Phillies that they would have interest in Jayson Werth if he is available, according to George A. King III of the New York Post. We heard yesterday that the Phillies, who would like to add a proven starter, are discussing possible Werth trades with ‘a lot of teams.’
Can we not trade him to the Yankees please? Especially considering they are getting Lee.
Honestly though, if they get Lee, they might as well just cancel the season and give them the trophy and we might as well trade Werth cause it won’t matter who is on our team.
Trade him to the Rays, they have lots of fun young prospects.
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. All things being equal, of the 3 teams mentioned I guess I’d rather make a deal with the Rays.
Or trade him for Oswalt
Fallas reports that the Dodgers, Phillies and Mets had scouts in attendance to watch Thursday’s performance. The impediment to any Oswalt deal, of course, is a contract that pays him $15 million this season and $16 million in 2011.
Ken Bland,
A post would have been way too long to to include every thing Amaro has done, and yes clearly the Hallday deal was a great move. And the original trade for Lee was a great move too. But doing one or two positive things amongst a bunch of bad things does not make one a good GM. If the negatives outweigh the positives, than so what about the positives? The phils don’t make as much as the yanks and red sox and a couple bad decisions could destroy our window. You have to look to win now in this town, not to be competitive over the long-run and rarely win – isn’t that what we learned about the Eagles? And I’m not just bringing this up about Amaro because the Phillies are struggling. I’m not using hindsight at all. These are opinions I have had since the time each of these transactions has taken place. I loved the Halladay trade but since it coincided with trading Lee, it was hard to enjoy it as much. These are discussions I’ve had in the past with my dad and as we focus on everything going on, I am bringing them up now. Perhaps I will be wrong and Amaro will be vindicated. I am not locked into this opinion but I just haven’t seen enough good things. I will be more than happy to be proven wrong at some point. Perhaps two years is too short a time period to view the talent of a GM, but that is how sports work in this country. Too say the Halladay trade shows Amaro’s talents is too short sighted as well. You need to look at the whole thing and right now I don’t think we have the ability to make up for the mistakes Amaro has made. This isn’t Adam Eaton’s $8M a year when we had a $90M payroll. This is like $25M when we have a $140M payroll and there just isn’t room to make up for this. I don’t see what the Phillies can do to make this team better. As Shane said, something feels different and no one knows what it is.
Honestly though, if they get Lee, they might as well just cancel the season and give them the trophy and we might as well trade Werth cause it won’t matter who is on our team.>>
While having 11 wins, C.C. has not been all that impressive in other statistics and has been hit around a good bit. HAmels would also have 11 wins with the same run support. And how much longer until the Pettite tank hits 3/4 empty? See if he can hold up all year again. We hit both around pretty good and we were in a slump, so I wouldn’t say that even with Lee they are automatic.
phillyfan,
you are right that they wouldn’t be a guarantee. but they would be a guarantee against the Phillies. Our line-up would not do well against the lefty-trio of Sabathia/Lee/Pettitte.
I’m just glad the Mets aren’t getting Lee. That would be too hard to swallow….
Pete,
Good to see you still expecting the Phils to be in the WS again. I would be very surprised if they make the playoffs at this point. Amaro has turned a WS champion into a non-playoff team in 2 years. Marvelous job.
Tony -
The roster Amaro put together, regardless of how he did it, was a playoff roster. There is no doubt about that.
The injuries / player performances / managing decisions are not on him.
Pete,
The roster he inherited was created by Pat Gillick and won the World Series. And much of that roster is what makes the Phillies a contender today. The moves he’s made since the offseason until now are baffling. For his tenure, for every good move, he’s made an equally bad one.
Pete -
Back to Werth, what kind of prospects would the rays be willing to give up for him? I mean I doubt they would sign him to a long term deal. Is Werth worth giving up Desmond Jennings or Jeremy Hellickson, the rays two top prospects. Maybe the Phillies would want Wade Davis. I’m not sure about that but I am sure that the Yankees with Sabathia / Lee / Pettitte / Burnett / Vasquez / Hughes / Chamberlain ……. are you fucking kidding me?
Like it or not, Amaro’s decisions - arrived at within constraints or by directives of invisible ownership team - affect players’ attitudes and performances, through the absence of ‘moved player’ talent/character strength or mindset alterations of roster - or a combination of both factors.
Rollins, for one example, publicly registered surprise and disappointment in Lee’s going. What do the other 24 think and feel about that off-season move as it pertains to team’s 2010 chances? Buttressed or feeling more vulnerable/pressured? The answer has mattered, and it still matters.
I am the master of getting questions answered in ESPN chats…
Pete (Philly)
And why exactly couldn’t Ruben Amaro couldn’t get anyone as good as Montero for Lee?
Jayson Stark(1:20 PM)
I knew I’d get this question. The biggest question I’ve always had is why the Phillies, if they knew they wanted to trade Lee, didn’t do what the Mariners have done — shop him around for a couple of weeks and stoke the bidding to get the best offer. They were so concerned with public reaction and with keeping it quiet that they were moving him at all, that it looks as if they only targeted one team. By the way, I should mention that teams I’ve spoken with still like Tyson Gillies and J.C. Ramirez, even though Gillies has basically been hurt all year and Ramirez hasn’t done much this season until recently. But would either of them be considered as good a prospect as Montero? No way.
oh, and a Jayson Werth for Javy Vasquez trade would probably make me throw up
Thanks for the reply, Adam.
You’re right about the time factor on listing all of Amaro’s moves. And I don’t disagree with you on a fair amount of points. And I might even be more pissed of than you when this deal for Cliff to NY goes down, which at this point appearws imminent.
There is no question in my mind that if this deal goes down, Rueben and fellow decisionmakers will be solely responsible for totally destroying the competitive aspect of baseball. The game is played on the field will be such a lame excuse. In order to spend the amount of money it takes to spend a night at rthe ballpark, you will need to9 have a completely different agenda because you’ll be watching meaningless competition, or compromising your standards to think that getting to the World Series is enough.
And while Amaro and company, whoever is company are not alone. Nor should Jack Z be fleeced for supposedly making the deal (matter of time assumption). The fact of the matter is that this not a bought deal by the Yanks. They will be making a deal that any of the 17 clubs said to be interested in Cliff could have made. But the Yankees step up, as usual.
I bet Mike Arbuckle is laughing today.
oh, and a Jayson Werth for Javy Vasquez trade would probably make me throw up.>>
That’s a start. Vasquez, Chamberlain and right hand hitter ability to some decent degree from the outfield is pretty discussable.
When did Werth turn into Pat effing Burrell?
What do the other 24 think and feel about that off-season move as it pertains to team’s 2010 chances? Buttressed or feeling more vulnerable/pressured? The answer has mattered, and it still matters. >>
I would bet it matters more than any of us are aware of.
Heyman is reporting the deal may be falling apart.
http://twitter.com/SI_JonHeyman
Heyman on Twitter link if you care about this.
Heyman is good. Scooped ESPN on pretty much everything in the off-season.
I’m looking for reasons to never visit ESPN.com again. CNNSi getting a couple Heyman-level guys for each sport would be a good start.
Baseball America also ranked Dom Brown the #1 prospect in all of baseball.
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/rankings/top-100-prospects/2010/2610314.html
Cosart and Singleton both rated as top-50 prospects.
People are nutheads of they ever thought trading LEE in the offseason to the Yankees for anything other then equal talent, let alone a minor leaguer, was ever an option. It just wasn’t going to happen….ever…by any GM, under the circumstances of what just occurred. And what is the big deal with a catcher. Unless this guy was going to be Morneua next year, Ruiz is fine for another 3-4 years. He is a very good player.
WOW…
South Jersey Product (Millville) Mike Trout #2?
last spring he was kicking my highschool’s ass… as he did to most schools. The kid is just 19 and is ranked #2. that is just amazing to me, that someone who my brother played against ( my brother’s a year older and pitched against him). I really can’t believe he is #2.
Unless this guy was going to be Morneua next year, Ruiz is fine for another 3-4 years. He is a very good player.>>
I read this, and I think that’s not right. And it took me close to a minute before I finally thought of Joe Mauer’s name. Amazing how you fade from the mwmory when you have 3 homers
Now it’s the Rangers getting Lee:
3:57pm: The Rangers will acquire Lee and Mark Lowe for Justin Smoak and three others, according to Sherman. Lowe will miss the rest of the season with back surgery, so his inclusion in the trade is puzzling. Rosenthal confirms that the Rangers are acquiring Lee and says the Mariners are sending cash.
Better than the Yankees getting him.
I’m still hoping that if Amaro is dead-set on trading for a starter and in trading away Werth he can work a 3-way trade, sending Werth to the Rays, for example, and having the Rays send prospects (or us flipping those prospects) to the Dbacks for Haren. Or, if we have the prospects to get Haren ourselves, then Amaro can restock the farm (in Lee-deal speak) by trading Werth for prospects. Any way you slice it I’d like to see us get Haren, although with all the injuries, bullpen issues, and sub-par performances we’re suffering through he might not make much of a difference this year.
Rosenthal confirms that the Rangers are acquiring Lee and says the Mariners are sending cash.>>
At the end of the day, I applaud Jon Daniels and Nolan Ryan for doing what so many have tried before them. Getting the right player at the right time. It will be very interesting to see how the lack of baseball community in the Dallas market reacts. My guess is pretty damned well, and it would be really nice to see Cliff in the WS 2 years in a row.
ALL RIGHT RANGERS!!!!!!!!! MIGHTY, MORPHIN into a contender??
they’ve always had hitting…
Evil Empire’s greedy sweaty palms hovering over Lee had me worried for a moment.
LOVE LOVE LOVE that move for the Rangers. Smoak is a big time name (FAAAAAR bigger than anything RAJ got) but with Lee atop the rotation and that offense and bullpen, they could win it all this year. And I’ll be rooting for them to.
PhillyFan-
Seriously dude?
jkay-
make no mistake about it. mariners used yankees to up price for other squads. yankees probably weren’t all that interested since they will just sign him after the season anyway.
The Good:
An NL contender or the Yankees didn’t get Lee.
The Bad:
The M’s got Smoak (+more+cash) for Lee. Isn’t he supposed to be the second coming of Mark Teixeira?
Jayson Stark on 97.5 said that the Dbacks have not at all made Haren available. And while the Phils have looked into him, nothing is really happening and Stark thinks it’s unlikely unless the Dbacks are really wowed with a package.
I’m more curious about the additional prospects’ abilities than Smoak. PETE?
crap forgot that Lee is a rental. DRAT, I’m tired of the BoSox-Yankee dynasties eating up all the talent.
doesnt Dan Haren have a contract that makes Oswalt look like a bargain?
The Diamondbacks have Haren under contract for $12.75 million for each of the next two seasons and hold a $15.5 million club option for 2013 ($3.5M buyout)
I know it’s not very likely, just holding out hope for Haren is all, Dannie.
b.ski – Wasn’t anything directed at you, just posting news for the group.
Stark also said the Phils preferred a pitcher that they would have control over for a bit, not a rental.
what a start…
Glad that the Rangers got Lee. They had better make the most of it now though. This being a trade within the division, 3 months of Lee vs. Smoak potentially hurting them in 20 head-to-head games for years might have them regretting the deal in the not-too-distant future. A championship this year (which is obviously the goal) would go a long way toward justifying this trade.
Oh, I never thought it was directed at me, Dannie. I was just saying that it was me dreaming a bit is all.
Stu-
Beavan has real good numbers in AAA at just 21. Not dominant strikeout numbers, but seems like he could be a 3rd starter caliber prospect.
Lueke is a 25 year old left handed reliever in AA. Great K/9 numbers, but so did Mike Zagurski. Not really a great prospect.
Lawson is also old for AA (24). He’s a 2B who is probably a utility guy. Good deal worse than Jason Donald I’d say.
Beaven is similar to the level of prospects we got for Lee. The other 2 are way below and Smoak is the best of the bunch.
In terms of the Smoak/Teixiera comparison, Smoak isn’t quite that level of prospect. He doesn’t have Tex’s glove, is a shade below on power, but takes more walks. All-star level talent though.
might be more cursing tonight. I’m home alone and my plan was to watch the Phillies. Considering they almost conceded the game in the first, I’m already kind of pissed.
What a start is right! Gotta hope the 1st was Blanton’s blow-up inning and he will give us 5 or 6 clean ones now (Discouraging as it is, it seems like all we can do with Blanton anymore is hope).
2 errors and a pick-off in the first inning….
man oh man… I’d better start drinking…
I might just rip on McCarthy all night…. he’s already stated how AMAZING it was that someone hit a 3-run HR who was previously 3 for his last 19. It was the dude’s 11th HR of the year, and people go 3 for 19 ALLLLL the time.
Not trying to be negative but I found an article by Tom Verducci from today that contains a healthy dose of realism.
None of that is to say the we will not make the playoffs——we certainly could take the wild card or still win the division——just that the odds are pretty good for the Braves and that we’ve got our work cut out for us with two teams ahead of us in the division.
Here’s what 14 full years of Wild-Card Baseball have taught us:
• First-place teams should start printing playoff tickets. Teams with an outright division lead of any length at the All-Star break go to the playoffs 73 percent of the time (61 of 83).
• Any team with a lead of more than five games is a virtual postseason lock. Only one team led its division at the break by more than five games and didn’t make the playoffs: the 2003 Royals, who blew a seven-game lead. Texas holds a 5 1/2-game lead today.
maybe Jonny Gomes will miss that 2nd fastball right down the middle, Joe…
Blanton is quietly the biggest disappointment of the year.
So much for a clean inning. Blanton is really on the edge. I know it sounds ridiculous but we need every game so if Blanton just does not have it tonight Charlie better have somebody ready before the game gets too far out of reach early.
Would a Werth for Hellickson trade to the Rays be asking for to much?
Ruben,
Yeah, Hellickson is not the type of player you trade for a rental hitter
maybe one of their other good pitching prospects though… Matt Moore, Jake McGhee, Alexander Colome, Alex Torres
OK, this is where we make like the Pirates and the Braves and put up a 6-spot, right?
I’ve had enough for tonight.
If we don’t get a dominant start we don’t win. Even then, with our bullpen it’s 50-50. The offense is showing up about once a week, which is damn frustrating and is just not getting it done (Leake has mostly cruised through 7 innings tonight, allowing only 5 hits and throwing 76 pitches in the process). I hope the time off over the break helps everybody regain their focus because what we’ve seen lately——throwing balls around, not catching balls, not finding balls, getting picked off, getting thrown out trying to take extra bases, and on and on——sure seems like a clear indication that they are not as focused as they need to be, regardless of how many pre-game, post-game, players-only, closed-door, Manuel-led, or whatever other types of meetings they’ve been having. I don’t exactly know how you express a sense of urgency without pressing on the field but I’d say we need to give it a try.
My turn to be down tonight I guess.
Talk with you tomorrow.
I’m not expecting the bottom of the order to score 3 runs here but at least they’re showing some fight
HOLY SHIT! CODY RANSOM!!!!!!!!!
interesting….
of course Shane tries to hit a walk-off on this first pitch he sees and pops it up…..
wow – I didn’t watch any of that – just got a text from a buddy. crazy. lets hope we can finish it off.
Madson looked sharp…just back from injury and it looks like his stuff is still there…I just wish he had the chops to close….
yeah, his change has looked very good.
I still don’t know why Ruben is going after a starter, not a closer.
hell of a swing by Raul there
here comes howard ” i gotta hit a hr” when we only need a single.
Howard = swing at balls in dirt
hahahaha – well Angelo, I’ll take the HR there!
The Big Piece!!!
well, he just shut me up…
interesting…
i’m not going to be the first to trip over myself but still…
next game?
Obviously a huge win. One that could turn our season around. However, I won’t believe it till I see this season’s team build on something positive. They weren’t able to build on their early season momentum when they had the chance to run away with the division lead. The couldn’t build on the Halladay perfect game. And they didn’t build on the walk-off home run from Jimmy a couple weeks ago. I’ll enjoy tonight for what it was but I need to see some consistency from this team before I buy into them and predict another division championship.
What a great comeback! I hope everybody else that turned the game off in disgust got a text from a friend because that was SWEET!
well it proves they still got it.
million dollar question: will they bring it?
And Pete, as to why RAJ is going after a starter, I would say its because we have a distinct weak link in our rotation (Blanton), and maybe he thinks Madson can still close or Lidge will figure it out. The only problem with that logic is that if we do trade for a starter what are the odds they kick the guy out of the rotation who is making $8 million. It would probably be Kendrick (who has been solid). Not sure who they can afford to get but I would prefer to see them get bullpen help…Blanton didn’t turn it on till late last year and aside from his last start Moyer has been pretty solid….
I don’t know what the saliva test is for being a turning point. Maybe the aftermath? I’m disappointed that it didn’t result in a game in the standings. Can’t argue with a terrific win though.
Pete, Regarding cursing on the board, years ago, I attended a sales seminar by a then well known guy named Tom Hopkins. One of his points, which has nothing to do with sales was why curse? You can say the same thing with effective language. The point I’m making is that fuckin Tom Hopkins might have been a baseball fan, but obviously not a Phillies fan.
3 months of Lee vs. Smoak potentially hurting them in 20 head-to-head games for years might have them regretting the deal in the not-too-distant future.>>
For the current time, the Rangers don’t figure to miss Smoak terribly. Chris Davis, who has not developed like they hoped (understated) is considered a better defensive first baseman, and Davis almost has to play better than he has to this point in a brief major league career. And remember, there will be a plethera of free agent first basemen available in the near future, such as Prince, Adrian and Ortiz, who I know doesn’t sound exciting, but is potentially available for reasonable value for a change.
Two things loom large in the Rangers near future. Settlement of the sale from Tom Hicks to Chuck Greenburg, which carries a lot of legal entanglement. And secondly, the degree to which the community reacts to this deal, which assumes winning. It is very reasonable to assume the AL West is about over. The 2 team race still has about 15 head to heads between the Angels and Rangers, but the comparison of the 2 clubs now is pretty obvious. When the Rangers won divisions in the late 90s, it was a facade to local people because it was obvious they weren’t in the Yankees class. This may turn out differently. The Yanks have starting pitching that would make a lot of teams drool, but it has some questions. They may niss the professional hitting skills of Damon and Matsui in a short series. If the Rangers beat them, the 12-16k the Rangers draw most nights that are against mortal opponents that are way over announced may catch fire, build momentum and at least cut the gap on how football crazed the Metroplex is. That translates to bucks, which translates to flexibility. And how bout this Ron Washington cat. Still employed, and headed to the post season.
They made a great deal on a number of fronts. I like Smoak as a player, but he may wind up very replacable.
I definitely tune in to Kenny Bland’s comment when he drops an F-bomb. A rarity for him.
Honestly, the 2010 Rangers remind me of the 2008 Rays. If the Phillies can turn it around, I’d welcome the Rangers in a 7 game series over the likes of NYY or BOS. We all know Mr. Lee can be dominate but can’t handle 3 days rest.
THE SEASON IS YOUNG! A boy can dream.
Turns out I was right in looking for a 6-spot from the Phils. I just didn’t stick with the game long enough to hear it. No texts or phone calls from a friend to alert me either. I applaud all of you who did hang in there.
I’ve also wondered why Amaro is looking for a starter rather than help for the bullpen. Having a more dependable starter than Kendrick or Blanton (or as a hedge in the event that Moyer regresses to his career averages) would help now but it seems to me it is more of a move for next year and beyond, Amaro’s statements about trading for a starter they will control beyond this season seeming to reinforce this belief.
The bullpen need seems more pressing and something, based on the impact that pickups like Romero and Eyre have made in previous seasons, that could offer a lot more bang for the buck and have a more immediate impact. The thinking must be that they are looking at the return of Madson, who should be strong the rest of the way as a result of hardly throwing any innings this year, and the return of Durbin as being in effect like picking up two relievers via trade and that they will provide the needed boost to the pen.
Mr. Lee can be dominate but can’t handle 3 days rest.>>
Yo, Stu. Can’t and haven’t are 2 different things. Charlie asked him if he had ever pitched on 3 days and Cliff said negative. So as it was presented to the public, they opted not to. We’ll likely see a similar conversation in Texas this fall.
You have to remember these things about Cliff. He’s now with 4 clubs in 2 years. Adrenaling might have gotten him off early here last year, dominating SF in his first start, 5-0, etc. In early September, he had a bad run. Playoffs, maybe adrenalin was back, although he did not dominate the Yanks in his 2nd WS start. But you’d rather have him than not by a longshot.
I don’t want to sound overly negative or paranoid, but you boys taking RAJ’s comments about seeking a starter might do well to take it with some degree of a grain of salt. Ruben told us twice that it was very unlikely we’d have Doc here. Bingo. I don’t know what he’d gain by positioning that for the sake of it, but the last5 time I trusted a GM’s public stance was the last time it happened. Not that the right starter wouldn’t help.
Just checked over at foxsports and I found this from Rosenthal’s and Morosi’s “Buzz” column from last night——The Phillies, still uncertain of how they will approach the trade deadline, have shown interest in Blue Jays reliever Scott Downs, sources say——so I guess a reliever (although not a closer) is still a possibility.
Lidge looks good to me from a physical standpoint. His fastball looks 1,000x better than last year. If he can get his head screwed on straight (the big IF), I still think he can still be the closer.
only 2.5 games out of WC with 76 games to go. If we dump Werth for a prospect I will take a dump on RAJ.
lets just all be thrilled that Lee didn’t go the NL. Be happy.
only 2.5 games out of WC with 76 games to go. >>
Phillyfan,
Do you think the wild card race is wide open or agree with me that the NL Central is the favorite because they can pile up wins against the Pirates and Houston?
Everything is gonna be alright guys. Stop worrying, The Phillies are going to make the playoffs. They are turning it around, We Will win the division. Doc, Cole, and Moyer are pitching great, I think were going to ride those three to a division crown.
I suspect many of us have at least as much interest in the forhcoming Futures Game as the all star game itself. Here’s a preview, including Domonic, of course.
http://insider.espn.go.com/blog/tmi-mlb/post?id=4355&_slug_=btf-futures-game-shows-promise&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fblog%2ftmi-mlb%2fpost%3fid%3d4355%26_slug_%3dbtf-futures-game-shows-promise
Our offense is just ridiculous.
Yeah, 5 perfect innings for Wood in his 3rd ML start??? I know it’s more us than it is him. Gotta stay tuned until the 9th tonight though (which at this pace will be in about 30 minutes).
Hour 20, 5 and a half inninngs, the kind of game I hate, a fast one that still winds up taking 3 hours. That’s assuming we can do something.
Doc has only thrown three more pitches in one more inning than Wood….
And on another day two of the hits given up are outs.
But I gotta give credit to Wood. I think his perfect game is more on him than us. He is hitting all his spots and making no mistakes.
Cliff lee might be up for trade again. He gave up a run in his to Texas debut. No biggie, except it was to Baltimore.
We’re gonna draw at least 1 walk in this inning, hopefully get this gem throwing kid out of his rhythm.
But I gotta give credit to Wood. I think his perfect game is more on him than us. He is hitting all his spots and making no mistakes.
Since I am relegated to listening to almost every Phils game on the radio (!@#$%^&* Comcast) I can’t get a sense of this so I’ll take your word, Dannie.
Lucky for us then that Halladay is on and is throwing a gem as well. A quick strike by the offense could get the job done for us.
If they keep having at-bats like the one Jimmy just had Wood as the perfecto in the bag….
B.ski, On tv or radio, you throw strikes, you win.
It’s a terrific game.
b.ski – I mean we’ve had some of our typical at-bats in this game:
But most of his now 8 strikeouts are all his doing. Either blowing at 94 MPH fastball by Werth just now, hitting the black with all his pitches or simply fooling the hitters.
He isn’t giving away walks (83 pitches-57 strikes) nearly identical to Halladay (82-58).
He is really dealing tonight, this guy looks real solid.
Tom Browning (1988) might just have to move over to make room for Wood on the podium reserved for Reds pitchers who have thrown a perfect game (Trying to put the black cat on him).
On tv or radio, you throw strikes, you win.
Unless of course you’re Joe Blanton, who threw 72 of his 102 pitches for strikes last night.
I’m sick of Shane trying to hit a home run every at-bat and popping out or flying out with such regularity…its no coincidence he has more home runs than any season in his career and hitting for the lowest average of his career….
Now 3 hits that very well could/should be outs. Only 1 legit hit given up by Halladay tonight. Could be enough for the Reds.
Needed that Roy!! That’s what you’re here for. Now the Phils bats need to step the fuck up.
We just saw Werth go deep into a count and nearly draw a walk and then Howard pops up the first pitch…we have to be more patient….
I’m at the game. Sitting 10 rows back Can’t decide what I want to happen here. Perfect through 9, phils win in 10?
For the record, every single fan at the game acted like we just lost when Lidge was announced.
This is a joke that they don’t score runs for Halladay. Feel bad for the dude, he has to pitch perfectly just to get a damn win.
Walk off HR in the 9th to break up the perfect game and give Roy the win. I am not about having opposing pitcher be perfect for the full 9 and I want Roy to get the win.
If I can look ahead, since this game has history a la Harvey Haddix written all over it, I’d hate to be either manager. Charlie turning it over to the pen, and Dusty thinking enough is enough for this kid.
thank you for keeping Votto in the park.
I was thinking the same thing, Ken. It would be something if we had a repeat of Burdette (Halladay) vs Haddix (Wood), but I’m sure Charlie will hit for Halladay since he’s due up and he’s thrown 117 pitches.
Its one thing if they have trouble scoring for him because a lot of the times he is going up against the other team’s ace but this guy has only started twice before tonight, unacceptable….
Bye. bye perfecto. Now let’s win this thing for Halladay like Dannie said.
There we go Chooch. Now can we do some damn situational hitting and manufacture this run – PLEASE!
welcome back Chooch
OMFG!
so much for manufacturing we can’t get a god damn bunt down….
Alright Jimmy, need a winning hit.
No doubt JRoll wins it
Unbelievable. Team just makes you sick.
its Brad lidge time guys!!
keep your inhaler close by.
Simple thing like Valdez’ lack of execution on the bunt cost us the win in 9. Get Chooch to 3rd and Ibanez ends up with a game-winning SF.
Dalai Lama zone, jkay.
Slider after slider after slider makes me nervous.
“For the record, every single fan at the game acted like we just lost when Lidge was announced.”
hahahahahaha
Damn it Lidge what is the point of faking to 3rd if you aren’t going to make that throw when he is caught leaning?
Damn team can’t execute anything. Only hope is to hit HRs.
yesss finally Travis Wood is gone.
if we get out of this, we can actually win the game.
Predection –
Headline: “Bullpen loses it for the Phils”
/ Brad Lidge’d
No room for error now. Gotta be sharp on Phillips.
Phillips is on my fantasy team — win-win for me
Typical Lidge inning. Let’s not revisit please. Homerun. Gotta have it.
lets see if we can do something against a new pitcher….
ahhh the good ole reverse jinx, never fails
If Votto bats, which means the Phils don’t score, I plan to set a record for tightest eyelid close ever.
Ruiz is clutch.
Rollins does it the 2nd time around.
J-ROLL!
Sunday is a must game. Not must, but we have to keep it gpong.
How you win a game on 4 hits in 11 innings with a box score that looks like binary code is beyond me but I’ll take it (again).
I’m going to the game tomorrow. I’d like nothing better than to see the offense break out the sticks and put some runs on the board so I can sit back, relax, and enjoy. A 9-2 win would be great.
think Jimmy might have seen my comment and gotten jealous.
mr. clutch himself. Phillies version, that is.
so is it luck or are we starting to play well?
The mets are useless.
crucial games for them, they’re on their way to getting swept.
thanks for nothing.
good ol Santana can pick them up tomorrow, and then maybe we can gain some ground.
so is it luck or are we starting to play well?>>
it’s heart. It’s a cut above the cloth of any team that is trying, and when they fail, the fans thinking they are short of something, be it desire, character, et al, and the Phils have one of the best clubhouses in the game.
It’s if we’re not a run manufacturing machine by nature, we’ll beat you another way. If the bullpen offers a guy who doesn’t have it one night, we’ll be right back at you the next night with his better effort, or somebody who will.
It’s an equal opposite on the patience side within the club that we as fans show on the impatient side.
We’re in a hole, and we’ll see if we can dig out of it. But when you combine good pitching with ineffective hitting and keep fighting as we have the last few nights, good things happen. Playing well is measured on the whole by one qualifier. Winning. Winning cures all. Last night and tonight we won. We’ve started to play well.
In case someone reading the references to Harvey Haddix tonightisn’t familiar with the mention, he pitched into the 13th inning for the Pirates and lost it in that inning to the Braves in the late 50′s. I believe Joe Adcock broke it up with a double.
MLBTraderumors reports the Brewers are listening to offers on Prince. Doug Melvin is the GM. A real class act. Used to GM the Rangers and other than failing to convince owner Tom Hicks to avoid signing ARod, did a very good job there, including choosing ex Phil Johnny Oates to manage the club.
I believe Melvin, fully aware of his first obligation to the Brewers would look upon helping the Rangers with no regrets. Enveloped in messy bankruptcy charges and digesting the losses for Cliff, I won’t speculate on what they have left to give up. But if Chris Davis doesn’t produce fast, John Daniels might be on the phone with Doug for perhaps another rental. Being as the stupid assed market of Dallas already has this rightfully hated football team and moronic fan base of same, I am sure they would enjoy being Yankees West the rest of the year. The funny thing is that it still might make for a nice story.
Halladay greatness watch back on. Only this year’s phillies can have a guy like him and we still won’t have a 20-game winner. Poor dude needs some runs. Unfortuntaly we have Cole “let down” Hamels. Hey Cole – if we score 3, how about letting up 2 this time. Rise to the freakin occassion.
On another note – Lee stunk it up tonight…How come I don’t hear anything about it on this board. Lord knows if he pitched a 6-hit shutout the roasting of RAJ would be loud and endless…
Phillyfan,
Do you think the wild card race is wide open or agree with me that the NL Central is the favorite because they can pile up wins against the Pirates and Houston?>>
Your kidding me right Ken? Cards have two guys matching Halladay and the almighty Albert and they still have as many losses as the Phils. You really think Garcia has a chance in heck of pitching like this in Septmber? Can you say F-A-D-E as the innings grow? And they have worse closer problems than the PHils. Franklin stinks this year. As far as the Reds, they also now have as many losses at the Phils. AND they have no starter that has sniffed a pennant race. What them die in August and September. IT is funny isn’t it – all these teams have these great stories and they seem they must be so much better than us. But you know what, as bad as we are playing we are even with them (in the loss column). That is how GOOD the Phils are. When they stink they are right there. At worst the Phils get the wild card. Its in the bag. And nice work by Lidge tonight. Francisco should have has that ball and it isn’t even an inning.
Haddix lost the perfect game on an error…they lost the game on a double….
Phillyfan-
We will mention Lee if he has 3 more starts like that. You clearly can’t use a one game sample in baseball to prove anything.
Why do you think every team but the Phillies is going to fade?
When does Milt Thompson started getting some heat?
The Phillies offensive approach has been pretty bad during this extended crappy stretch. Obviously we don’t know if the players are held accountable for this kind of thing, but that would seem to be Milt’s job to me.
Charlie Manuel, he of the 6 yr. career .198 batting average and 77 ks in 384 career ABs (4 HRs), drowns out Milt Thompson and encourages the lineup to just keep hackin’ … “ya wanna know what I think, I think you’ll definitely hit; ’cause you boys are good; I seen it with my own eyes.”
well it wasnt necessarily elegant but they got it done.
hiatus for me.
might even tune in to the all star game.
I hope Domonic Brown isn’t seriously hurt…he just got taken out in the second inning of the Futures Game with a tweaked hamstring….
kudos to Hamels for stepping up and the emergence of the teams heart in this series. Lidge is looking good. 1 loss back on the wild-card leaders and haven’t started hitting yet. Looking forward to Howard’s typical run. Could be looking at MVP numbers – .315, 35-40 dingers, `135 RBIs. Werth to get hot, Victorino will also get hot. Ruiz is the man. Should be another great summer for the boys. Col next weekend in town will be nice…
Pete:
First, the Phillies have faded. We have seen it. I don’t see it getting worse. I think they can’t play much worse – this is their baseline. Barriing a injury to Halladay of course. I think the reasons I gave for Cards and Reds are self-evident. It is logic. Reds starters and Garcia are very young and in August and September both inning fatigue and pressure will take their toll. Is it certain, no. But is it probable? Yes. And do you really think the Reds closer finished with a 1.00 ERA?
actually, logic dictates that a team with 2 cy young candidates and the perennial MVP, and has made the playoffs 7 of the last 10 years would be unlikely to fade.
Yes, Garcia will probably pitch a little worse. That appears to be your entire argument. That and that you just want it to happen, so you are pretending it is likely.
So if the Reds and Cardinals both really suck, who wins that division?
All the Phillies need to do is worry about themselves and get to 92+ wins. The Rockies, Giants, Dodgers, Cardinals, Braves, Mets, Reds and Padres all have decent playoff chances – it’s going to take a lot of wins to get to the playoffs this year.
Haddix lost the perfect game on an error…they lost the game on a double….>>
good work, Jurnee. I read about that one, a little before my time. Funny how I definitely remember Adcock but wonder if I ever even read who made the error preceding that.
Phillyfan,
Do you think the wild card race is wide open or agree with me that the NL Central is the favorite because they can pile up wins against the Pirates and Houston?>>
Question still stands. You didn’t answer it at all. You gave me a Street and Smith’s mid season preview of the divison.
Do you think Pittsburgh and Houston as intradivision competition, which assumes more games is any sort of advantage?
Pete Writes:
>>actually, logic dictates that a team with 2 cy young candidates and the perennial MVP, and has made the playoffs 7 of the last 10 years would be unlikely to fade. Yes, Garcia will probably pitch a little worse. That appears to be your entire argument. That and that you just want it to happen, so you are pretending it is likely.>>
Pete – Ken posed that the Reds and Cards have the inside track, thereby excluding the Phils, assuming the Phils don’t win the division. So one of the them will make it, and I expect it to be the Cards. But why can we not apply the same harsh criticism to them that you seem ready to apply to the Phils. With all their Cy Young pitching, they are 47-41, worse than the Phils. Is there any reason to think they will be that much beter in the second half, assuming as you say, Garcia drops off a bit. Just saying…let’s not let our dissappoinment with the Phils in the first half obscure our evaluation of other teams. there are very few good teams in the NL.
I agree that I tend to be the most optimistic person on this board regarding the Phils, but I do not think it is without logic or factual basis. They have done it for three straight years and have the most talent, or at least equal to all others, in the NL. Why would they not do it (be a second half team) again? Am I optimistic? Yes! But it is grounded in history, not hope. Howard surges, Halladay and Hamels look pretty good. If I am a Cincy fan and was writing that I was very confident that the Reds would make the playoffs, that would be “pretending.” Jeter and Smoltz are right. As with many past champs, The Phils are struggling with “because it happened in the past, then it will happen.” That won’t cut it – they still have to make it happen. I am confident they will do it again BECAUSE they did it in the past. That is not wild optimism.
>>So if the Reds and Cardinals both really suck, who wins that division?>>
I didn’t say they really suck. Cards win it with 88-92 wins. Cincy does not make the playoffs.
>>All the Phillies need to do is worry about themselves and get to 92+ wins. The Rockies, Giants, Dodgers, Cardinals, Braves, Mets, Reds and Padres all have decent playoff chances – it’s going to take a lot of wins to get to the playoffs this year.>>
That is my point. Worry about themselves. This will draw chuckles, but I am still very confident they win the division. If they don’t then I do see them in the Wild Card, edging out the Dodgers. Colorodo win sthe West.
Ken Writes:
<<Question still stands. You didn’t answer it at all. You gave me a Street and Smith’s mid season preview of the divison. Do you think Pittsburgh and Houston as intradivision competition, which assumes more games is any sort of advantage?>>
It is more subtle that just looking at records. But my answer is NO, that does not give them an advantage, any more than our advantage since we play the Nats and fading Florida. You may say, “but they always play us tough.” And I wholeheartedly agree. Division games have a different dynamic and they other team can often “get up” for the matchup. But the same dynamic will occur in the other division matchups. Houston has always prided them selves in being a 2nd half team and all Pitt has to play for are the division games. They will not be pushovers.
There are 6 teams within 2 games beneath the NL division leaders in the at the break standings.
The Phils trail 3 clubs.
It makes for interesting conjecture, and will likely be very intense come the last 5 games.
But every one of those clubs is a contender for their division title. The Phils have the biggest deficit of all, at 4.5 games out of the 6 clubs not in first place that are reasonable wild card contenders.
Of the 3 divison leaders, the only one that has much chance at all of not falling out of first, even if they wind up winning it is the Braves. And that includes short term. You could still get nice odds if you bet on the Braves to stay there all year. If you bet they do, I’d say you could get 4-7 times your money back. Wild guess, but there’s a good amount of risk in betting they do.
Between the next 2 weeks of trade deadline talk, and next 2 months standings flips, it will make your head spin.
Only 2 things are certain. Paying attention to all this stuff will drive you nuts, and whoever does qualify for the playoffs will have done a terrific job of fighting off balanced compettion. And all that is an annual event, just maybe more intense this time around.
I think it was 2 years ago that ARod predicted the wild card in the AL would come out of the East. That was because the Yanks and BoSox were the best teams in the League. Fair enough logic. But Derek Jeter disagreed with him, and I forget if it was the Central oe West (probably the Central) because of weaker competition within the division. I remember that Jeter wound up right.
Not that Phillyfan is wrong about Houston usually playing better in the 2nd half, but any conversation about the biggest losers of the first half has to include Pitt, Hou, and the Chicubs. The Cubs seem ready to just absolutely blow up.
Who plays who and how many times may bring that advantage to light or not. I’m not spending my time investigating it. And you get hot and win 6 in a row, and it don’t matter who be playing whom wherever. But I do think it gives the Central a potential advantage for wild card competition. Let’s call it a less than unimportant secondary factor.
Ken,
Well put. REally, my concern is the Phils beating the bad teams. That is where they made hay in recent years and that 3 loss series to Pitt was brutal. They start the second half with 7 on the road – 3 against the reeling Cubs. They need to win at least 2 of those to keep the momentum going, especially with Halladay and Hamels going in that series. Split with the Cards would work for me. I see things coming together with Ruiz back ( man, his importance cannot be underestimated – the guy is clutch and a man behind the plate) and Madsen looking good. As an Aside, I REALLY hate lumpung Halladay and Hamels 1-2 right now. Kendrick, Blanton and Moyer together exposes us too much to a losing streak. Until Blanton resurfaces I would like to flip flop him and Hamels.
I REALLY hate lumpung Halladay and Hamels 1-2 right now. Kendrick, Blanton and Moyer together exposes us too much to a losing streak. Until Blanton resurfaces I would like to flip flop him and Hamels.>>
You wrote that a month ago, and I don’t disagree. I forget when or how it changed. But I rather li8ked when Moyer was behind Doc.
Let’s call it a less than unimportant secondary factor.>>
Bringing back the memory of the late Charlie Swift, who according to legend said, “Touchdown Kansas City, check that, Oakland” when the Iggles were playing Oakland, I must say, check that to my above statement.
Re: Post 216 validating my own personal view, which has zero to do with how it turns out, but I feel better correcting it.
It reflects truer personal feeling reading “let’s call it a more than unimportant secondary factor” meaning it matters, but maybe secondarily.