Everyday I read another Sixers fan complaining about the time it’s taking to sign Andre Iguodala and Louis Williams. As a fanatic as well I too understand the anxiety of not having two of the team’s best players not signed this late into the off-season. With that said I also fully understand WHY this is the case. When you think about the situation from the point of view of why, it gives, at least for me, some piece of mind.
I have little doubt that both players will be signed and ready to go before training camp. This summer’s free agent market has just been a bear for restricted free agents and their respective teams. Here are some things to consider before you go off on a rant as to what the hell Ed Stefanski and the Sixers are doing.
Top 3 Reason Iguodala and Williams haven’t been signed
1. No offers from other teams and therefore no 7-day time frame to respond.
This is the biggest reason nothing has gotten done. Teams with restricted free agents typically wait for another team to set the market price for their restricted players. But this season, with all the big money swallowed up by the unrestricted players, that left the restricted guys out in the cold.
The 7-day response deadline serves as a built in pressure cooker to speed up the process. So far Stefanski and the Sixers have felt no pressure to get a deal done quickly. All that was needed was one offer and we would be past this; instead the negotiations drag on.
Will a foreign team come in and make an offer to Andre Iguodala or Louis Williams? Maybe. It really depends on the conversations between them and their agents. Are they looking overseas to put pressure on the Sixers? Is there a team out there willing to pay Iguodala $13M+ per year to play overseas? I doubt it. But I think if that were to happen the Sixers would react and at least match the offer from a team outside the U.S. for either player.
2. No comparable restricted players have been signed (until now)
Prior to the Monta Ellis signing last week and the Andres Biedrins signing that should be final today that is (more on this in my next post). Basically there has been NO market at all for restricted players, making evaluating a player’s worth that much tougher. The Sixers should be evaluating how much Lou and Iguodala are worth to the Sixers but having more information should help. Those outside points of reference help both sides of the negotiations.
For the player, he can see what similar players are getting and help shape his own number in his mind. I honestly think players have little clue how much money they should ask for. They aren’t like management working under a salary cap or charged with building a winning club. They are the puppets of sports agents, and looking at what other guys get paid is really their only way to get a ballpark figure for themselves.
For teams, it gives them rebuttals to outlandish contract demands. Meaning if player X says “this guy got this and I am on that level” (aka Emeka Okafor looking at Dwight Howard’s contract), the team can respond with hard core statistics and production to dispute such ridiculous claims as in the case above. We all know it; people are delusional and constantly overstate their abilities. As a pro athlete that psychological misrepresentation is just amplified by the money-hungry agents who stroke their egos.
Is this the case with Andre Iguodala? I don’t know because I am not a fly on the wall in these negotiations. But if I had to bet on it I think the answer would be a resounding – YES.
3. New Sixers GM
I already wrote about my theory regarding Andre Iguodala hoping he could juice Billy King this summer for an overblown contract. I don’t think there will be very many bad contracts given out during the Ed Stefanski era in Philly. That means negotiations are probably not as warm and fuzzy as Iguodala and Williams had hoped. I can just picture Stefanski as a pretty hardcore negotiator and, considering nothing has gotten done, pretty firm on his position.
And the deliberations continue.
At first I was going to do a top 5 or 10 list, but I’d rather stop at three and see what you guys can come up with in the comments. Good to be back and should have a couple more Sixers posts coming in the next day or so.
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{ 14 comments… read them below or add one }
Nice post. My biggest concern is the overseas market. You can’t really be sure what a player is being offered so the leverage shifts to the player. I’m sure the Hawks didn’t believe Childress was going to get $7 million a year until it actually happened.
All three are excellent reasons and certainly we know that if Billy Queen was still in down he would have broke the bank, never traded Korver, so no Brand. I think it will get done, now that the other restricted’s are starting to sign. Some of these guys need to wake up and stop turning down 10 mil to get 12 mil, that’s stupid when in reality you play a game for a living.
The Childress signing just shows you how out of touch with reality professional athletes are. If I was offered $5M for a job in Philadelphia or $7M for the same job in Omaha, Nebraska or some other unknown city, I can guarantee you I am taking the $5M and staying in Philly. $5M is a lot of money and good luck spending it all. Childress knows they speak Greek in Greece and there aren’t many Americans and his whole family is in America? He is stepping away from playing in the NBA over a few million dollars when he would have made more than enough if I staying in Atlanta. It’s ridiculous. Of course, there was that lovely article by Rick Reilly about how so many professional athletes somehow manage to spend all they have and go bankrupt.
These guys get mad and think they are disrespected when a team only offers them $10M and they want $11M. Do they realize the rest of America is in a recession and people are struggling to pay for gas and ends meat and what not? You really think fans are going to get behind you in your fight for another $1M. Players will just alienate fans with this behavior. I am letting my thoughts on football holdouts creep into this. But if you sign a contract two years ago, guess what, two years later guys will have bigger contracts. Thats the risk you take. Don’t sign long term deals if you are just going to complain two years later. No one held a gun to your head and said sign this deal or else. Maybe sports should go back to one year contracts where the team held an option on the player for the next year (i.e., no free agency). I really have no respect for professional athletes and their salary demands in case you can’t tell. I guess they only fight for more money because the owners make so much. Its all just a vicious cycle that just causes fans to pay more and more money for tickets, concessions, and everything else. The professional sports industry is truly a problem that somehow needs to get fixed.
I hope Iguodala gets Monta Ellis money and Lou gets in the neighborhood of Sasha money. That being said, as long as they get signed for a reasonable price, and I think they will because Eddy seems to know what he’s doing, I’ll be satisfied. I just want the deals to get done so we can get on with the off-season and start worrying about a championship ring.
I am one of those fans who has been ranting to sign them both…quickly. I just want to see this team compete at a high level and without those two I dont know if the sixers could, even with Brand. The probability of either player getting an offer from another club in this country or outside it is low, but until a deal is reached there will be uncertainty. I want both players on the roster and HAPPY, if they’re disgruntled they’ll be as good to us as if they were gone. Adam, you cant compare a players salary to the average joe on the street, the NBA is a very lucrative industry, because of the players and their work. When I see a player negotiating for additional money I applaud them, there are a lot of people behind the scenes (owners, nba execs, etc.) making a VERY comfortable living and they aren’t the product, the players are and they should be compensated.
Andre and Lou – 2 more replaceable basketball players passing through the city. What have they accomplished, really? They’ve both got a lot of nerve and a distorted view of their impacts on a long-standing organization to expect huge paydays this early. The only reason current basketball players get big money is because of big know-how and big corporate structure that has evolved through big minds and big effort through hard decades. Without it, players only have a basketball and a court to find, and no million dollar dreams. That should be respected when approaching negotiations. Iguodala, Williams and their agents can take the next slow boat to China for all I care. The NBA and the Sixers wouldn’t skip a beat. Ed Stefanski knows the game. Isn’t fooled by sizzle. Reason for the signing delays: unearned expectations.
ADAM: Could you please clarify something for me? Here you say you are fed up with professional athletes and their salary demands, yet under the topic “Are The Phillies Cheap?” in post #6, you said this: “if the phillies owners have to lose many millions over the next few years to put the phillies in the best chance of winning a championship, they must do it. as has been said on this blog before, our window is not very large. we may never have players like rollins, utley, howard, lidge and hamels all in their prime at the same time. the owners must do everything they can to get this team to win now. just being above average is not good enough.”
I’d like to ask a few questions of you. First, how do you figure the Phillies’ owners will lose many millions if it is not by overpaying for players? In order to get the Sabathias or to keep the Howards of the league, the Phils would need to give in to their ridiculous salary demands, wouldn’t they? On the baseball topic you say this is what you expect the Phils to do, but here you say you are upset that guys like Iguodala and Williams expect an extra $1 million per season. Shouldn’t the Sixers go all out now and lose millions if necessary to win a championship, especially since we have Brand? Why the different approach to different sports?
Second, again on the baseball topic, you are upset because the Phils are wasting their window of opportunity with Howard, Utley, Rollins, Lidge, and Hamels. Don’t the Sixers also have a similar window with Brand, Williams, Iguodala, Miller, Young, and Dalembert? I mean, you’re getting on the Phils because they are not spending enough to get themselves into a position to win the world series. What if the Sixers hold their ground with Iguodala and/or Williams, let them walk over $1 million per year in salary, and then they never win a championship? Will you look back and say they wasted their window with Brand and the others because they were too cheap to pay Iguodala and Williams the extra $1 million per season?
Maybe the Phils aren’t cheap at all. Maybe they are as fed up as you with ridiculous salary demands by players and have decided not to indulge them. Maybe you should applaud the Phils for taking a stand instead of hammering them for not doing what it takes to win a championship.
I used to feel like you do toward the players. There are several reasons why I do not feel that way any longer. For one, the owners are billionaires (with a B) while the players are millionaires. The players are out there working for the man and trying to get paid. Sports is no different than any other business. If you own a store, you are not going to pay a clerk who works for you what you pay yourself. The owners make a lot of money from the players (a lot of it off the field) and they give them some of it (not all of it) back in salary.
Another reason is because it’s human nature to get what you can. When you put your house on the market, you try to sell it for the most you can. Well, the players are literally selling themselves. They will try to play one team off of another in an attempt to drive up their salary just like you would play one buyer off of another in an attempt to drive up the price of your home. Also, if someone offered you $25,000 more than your house was worth, would you turn it down? If not, how can you expect a player to turn down a more lucrative offer?
I think the biggest reason of all is that the players literally put their bodies on the line. Each and every play could be their last, so I don’t blame them for trying to get all they can while they can get it. How much is your body worth to you? Also, as much as we fans lament the fact that there is no loyalty shown by the players, there is not a whole heck of a lot shown by the owners either. As soon as a players production starts to slip he is no longer needed, regardless of how many good years he has given an organization.
Lastly, you feel exactly the way the owners want you to feel. All of that hatred, venom, and jealousy helps them make their case for keeping salaries down. The owners want you to resent the players as greedy bastard millionaires because it conveniently makes you forget that they are greedy bastard billionaires. They wouldn’t spend the money on players if they didn’t have it. There is no need at all to worry about the owners and I’m sure as heck not going to take their side in this thing.
ADAM: Since you haven’t checked back in here yet, I thought I would add a bit to my remarks from the previous post.
First of all, I got too caught up in detailing what I perceive to be inconsistencies in your line of thought to say that there are things you said with which I agree. Even though I side more with the players than the owners, I agree that every player should honor their contract. The player reached an agreement in good faith with a team, so they owe it to the team to fulfill their obligation to the best of their ability. I also agree that if a player fears that he will be underpaid in a few years, he should not sign a long term contract. It’s a gamble on both ends. Many times a team, in order to get a player they feel will really help them, will commit to a long term deal. Sometimes the team gets burned because either the player is not productive enough over the life of the contract or he sustains an injury. On the other hand, many times a player will forgo some money in order to obtain long term security. The risk for the player is that he will stay healthy, perform very well over the life of the contract, and end up being underpaid in the latter years of his deal. When a player is injured he is not going to give any money back, so he can’t expect the team to tear up his contract and give him a new deal if he ends up outperforming his contract. Maintain or improve your level of performance and get an even bigger payday when you negotiate your next contract, but don’t hold out or pull all kinds of garbage to try and force the team’s hand.
Again, I side with the players because the owners in all sports maintain the overwhelming majority of control. The player’s unions have help tremendously, but the owner’s still own the players under contract to them. Teams under report revenue and over report expenses so that it looks like they either have no more money to spend on players, or that the team is actually losing money. I don’t buy it for a second.
Let me know what you think about all of this.
I haven’t responded because I am in New York for the bar exam. So my mind is elsewhere but I am now sitting in my hotel room bored out of my mind so I will try to respond. I do understand the contradictions you see in my posting but I will start general and then get specific.
I have issues with sports in general. I am a diehard sports fan and could never live without at them. But at the same time I think sports have gotten out of control. I shouldn’t have to spend over $200 to see a Sixers game not including parking, beer and eating. Sports are pricing the regular fans out or forcing people to spend much more than they want to in order to see a game. So I have issues not only with the player demands and their salaries but also the owners. But the real problems are the fans themselves because the continue to pay this ridiculous prices. The one to make a stand is to stop showing up. Basic economics will lower the price if demand comes down. But as long as the TV contracts are huge for sports, especially football, there is no way for salaries to not continue on their continual rise.
I happen to side with owners over players because I am into business. Most owners worked their ass off to get to where they are. They weren’t born with freakish athletic ability, though maybe they were born with freakish brain activity. Yes, players work very hard at what they do too but I respect a businessman who had to work from the bottom and get to where he is. A lot of luck is involved to become a billionaire. But at the same time, once a billionaire chooses to become an owner, I think he has one objective and that is to build a winner. I do not think building a winner necessarily means throwing around money for no reason. I think money should be reasonably spent. Yes, I want the Phillies to win and I believe that their window is small. Does that mean I want them to go spend $25M a year for 7 years to sign Sabathia? No, I don’t because that is just outlandish.
I guess I just find it hard to agree with either side in these situations. Regardless, none of these people should be able to spend all the money they make and haggling back and forth over another million just seems crazy to me. A million dollars is a ton of money.
It also needs to be taken into account that some sports have salary caps. Obviously the NBA is a soft cap due to the Larry Bird rights but just because the Sixers can now go over the cap doesn’t mean that they have to. I am not saying they should let those players walk, but clearly Williams and Iggy have no leverage in this situation. Where are they going to go? I just do not understand why a player would go to play in Europe over a few million dollars. I lived in Europe for 6 months and I want to go back for another year, but to London, where they speak English. I cannot imagine spending 3 years in Greece. I just do not understand how they say Childress is getting more money in Europe when at the current exchange rate his $7M is not getting him as far in Europe. I would understand if he was getting paid 7M euros but as far as I know, that is not the case.
So maybe I am contradicting myself. I dont know. What I do know is I love sports but I think things have just spiralled out of control. It is kind of like a chicken and the egg thing. You say the owners are profiting because of the players but without the owners, how would the players get paid?
Other sports teams, such as the Red Sox, spend lots of money on salary but at the same time they spend money on their farm system. If the Phillies had a farm system they could leverage those players into other established stars and help the Phillies add to the nucleus they have now. But unfortunately for them, spending money may be the only way. I just don’t think that is the way to do it because money doesn’t necessarily win championships. Not when it is spent that way.
My mind is all over the place with this bar exam. So I apologize for possibly not being totally coherent and trying to explain. But I do not think I am contradicting myself. I guess I can say the owners should do all they can to win but at the same time the players are ridiculous to hold out for even more lucrative contracts. I don’t think those two things are mutually exclusive. And if they are, call me a hypocrite.
one more thing: its not so much that i have total issues with players getting paid, but its the whining in bickering and feeling disrespected over an offer of $10.5M instead of hte $11M they want. if the phillies have to take on salary that is okay because that contract was already negotiated. and if you have to pay to get a great player, as long as you are not overpaying, that is fine. but the issue is when a player is getting what he deserves but wants even more. of course, what he deserves is still way more than he really should be getting. i wonder what it was like to live in a time when professional athletes had to work in the off season and part of us common folk and men wore 3 piece suits to baseball games. those must have been good times.
ADAM: It is a difficult situation. I agree that things seem to have gotten out of control. I wish it wasn’t so expensive to go to a game. I would love to go to more than one Phillies game each year but with a wife and two kids, one game is all we can swing. I don’t know when the prices will stop climbing or how high they will be when they level off. As a regular guy, I have no choice but to pay for the premium sports subscriptions from Directv in order to follow my teams, which adds to their coffers.
You know, I wish it would be as easy as boycotting to bring the prices down, but it’s not that simple. There is so much revenue generated outside the ballpark that there is no way to avoid supporting sports. People who have no interest at all in the NFL, NBA, MLB, etc…support them every day by eating at McDonalds, drinking Pepsi, wearing Nikes, driving a Toyota, buying a Sharp hi-def LCD television, shopping at Home Depot, and on and on.
Anyway, there is obviously a whole lot of money in sports. Both the owners and the players are making billions off of us. I think we would feel a lot less angry about the whole situation if they could all just get along and divide up the obscene amount of money we give them amicably. That’s what gets insulting to me. Owners complaining about players, players complaining about owners. I’m going to spend a week’s pay to take my family to a game so they can fight over how to divvy it up?
We are in agreement with regard to player’s fulfilling their contracts. If you sign a contract, you are bound by it and you have an obligation that you must discharge without any whining or complaining. The whole disrespected thing is ridiculous. As you said, if you want to guard against being underpaid, then only sign one year contracts.
As far as what a player deserves or what he really should be getting paid, that is determined by market forces. I will grant you that it is an artificial market, but it is a market nonetheless and everyone plays by the same rules, except in baseball of course. As I’ve said before, players salaries wouldn’t be what they are if the money wasn’t there. The owners are not spending money they do not have.
You said that “the owners should do all they can to win but at the same time the players are ridiculous to hold out for even more lucrative contracts.” The owners doing all they can to win is exactly why the players hold out for more lucrative contracts. By holding out and asking for more money, the players are asking the owners how badly they want to win. In an effort to do all they can to win, the Giants paid a ton of money to Barry Zito and Aaron Rowand. It hasn’t worked out for them. What comes next is when Sabathia becomes a free agent at the end of the season. Sabathia will show how much better he is compared to Zito. He will say he is worth much more money and he will get it because some other owner is going to do all he can to win. You see, each side of the process feeds the other.
As for the rest of it, I get that you side with the owners. I understand your reasons, but I still side with the players, as I have previously stated.
ADAM: I forgot. Good luck on the bar exam.
@Adam:
I think most of us would agree with you that we are all sick and fed up with the circus…and a billion dollar circus at that…that the sports world has become. But this isn’t exactly an isolated scenario. The movie & music industry are identical in producing the same sick, disgusting machinery of a business…and I really see no difference in any other entertainment industry, or otherwise, that isn’t a cut throat atmosphere of economic greed.
Given that…why blame the players? Why on earth wouldn’t you try to get the highest paycheck possible? How is not seeking out the highest paycheck, and getting peeved if you feel you’ve been lowballed, different then any other business?
Also…I understand that in your analogy ($5 million to stay in Philly vs. $7 million in Nebraska) YOU would think it’s a no brainer to stay in Philly. That says you value home, family and familiarity, which is cool. But it’s a mistake to think everyone else would have the same values. It’s up to the individual whether they’d want to take a higher pay check in a place they don’t like living in as much…and power to them whatever choice they make, that’s not for us to judge.
Also…Josh taking more money to go to Greece isn’t exactly like being exiled to the cold winters of Milwaukee. I mean…the kid is 25 years old. IMO, he’d be CRAZY not to take more money, while getting to live in one of the cooler cities and countries in the world, open to new experiences, cultures, and able to travel to Europe, Africa, Asia and the Middle East easily from his new location. Athens is not exactly Sheboigan PA, a lot of people would cherish the opportunity to be financially secure in a new country.
Lastly…I HATE when people knock athletes, actors, musicians…any of these types saying they aren’t deserving of the money they make. I don’t think most people realize that ATHLETES WORK THEIR ASSES OFF. Guys that train and play on the professional sports level are the top physical specimens in the world. It’s far more rare people are lazy and get by on talent only (Ricky Davis) then the average pro athlete that trains year round, HAS to stay in peak condition, and is constantly enduring a maximum of physical, and more importantly mental strain every day. It’s utterly exhausting. I’m not saying teachers, social workers etc. don’t deserve more money…but damn, no one has the right to say athletes/actors/musicians don’t work their tails off and, for the most part, earn their paychecks.
Market values are established and this is a billion dollar industry…players are pawns in the ridiculous circus sports world, and have every right to stake what claim it in they can, when they can.