http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4216449

JVG has not gotten out of the 1st round since he had Ewing and is tied to Riley’s Knick philosophy no matter who is on the roster.  During the end of his Knick era, he had a team with a young Camby, Prime Spreewell, Houston, Rice, Childs and Larry Johnson.  That is a team that needs to push the ball, but he had them playing at the SLOWEST pace in the league, because that was his philosophy.  They got bounced in the 1st round.  After watching Adelman’s success in Houston with his same roster, he himself said he could never gotten that team that far, especially on offense.  JVG is a good coach, but I’d rather take the chance on somebody who has great ideas but was never given a real chance then a retread.  Practically every great coach was a nobody at some time. 

Sean:  I’m sure JVG and Avery got outcoached FAR more than twice.  It is impossible not to get outcoached at some point or another in a league that plays 82 games over the course of a regular season, and potentially another 25 or so during the playoffs.   I do not understand judging coaches who are regularly finding success with their teams that don’t get over the hump.  It’s one thing if you have a team full of good players that is healthy and they aren’t getting out of the 1st round every year.  

But to go DEEP in the playoffs, AND find regular season success, and then blame the coaches?  Avery certainly bungled the G-State matchup.  He was psyched out and let Nellie get to his head.  He made a mistake.  He’s one of the youngest coaches in the league, he’ll learn from it.  He’s proved himself to be nothing but a tough, demanding coach that greatly understands X & O’s, how to improve team defense, how to utilize his team’s players to put them in the best situations possible to score, and getting your pansi ass star player to actually grow a backbone and get in the paint to score.  Gee, yeah, horrible traits to have in a lead coach.  

Avery was a PG for 15 years in the league.  He was a young coach and naturally fell into overcoaching.  He made mistakes in the Nellie series.   Yet I’d bet a lot of money that given all the time to reflect and be in the broadcasting booth Avery has learned, and will GROW as a coach.  This mentality that “a coach is a coach, and they can’t change!” is absurd to me.  Just like players…they change, they grow, they adapt, they work harder, they improve…with dedication.  Avery clearly has that, as well as good instincts for the game.  

JVG took over one of the most heated, stressful and ridiculous coaching situations in NYC and miraculously got that team to the finals.  He had the NYC team since Riley’s departure playing tough nosed, defensive, TEAM basketball.  He did the same with the Rockets…yet when you have what is a top 10 talent in the league perennially injured (T-Mac), with a weak supporting cast, and you still win 45 and 51 games.  After his 34 win season in year 3, I don’t think he had to be fired, but it made sense for the Rockets to make that move, and it’s paid off.  

But take a good long hard look at the roster JVG had in his first two years coaching…year 1 was Stevie Franchise, Mobley, a very young Yao, and some roler players like Mo Taylor, J Jackson and an aging Clarence Weatherspoon.  How far is this team going in the playoffs?  I’d say this is a 2nd round team TOPS, and honestly more like a 1st round team…JVG gets 45 wins with them, and they play who in the 1st round?  The juggernaut 03-04 Lakers team with Kobe, Shaq, Malone and Payton…all finally healthy again.  JVG’s inferior team lost to a superior team.  Not his fault.

04-05…T-Mac’s first year playing with Yao…which 85% of the time, unlike Boston, takes time to adjust and gel when you have two mega stars learning to play with each other.  They win 51 games…a very good record for their first year together.  I’d call this a very solid 2nd round playoff team.  The problem: this year the Mavericks were starting to do really well under Avery Johnson (58 wins), and the West that year, the year before, and the year after would be all about the heated Spurs-Mavs teams.  No one else was entering that equation.  A far superior 58 win Mavs team beat a very good JVG 51 win team in the 1st round.  

Oh, and after T-Mac and Yao…the Rockets other players logging regular minutes in the 51 win year were: an absurdly over the hill Jim Jackson, Bobby Sura, Mike James, David Wesley (way over the hill), Juwan Howard (way over the hill) and Mo Taylor (out of the league).  JVG didn’t beat the 58 win Mavericks with this team?  Is this shocking to anybody?

05-06:  The first year T-Mac and Yao both starting becoming perrennially injured.  Sometimes they were healthy, sometimes one was hurt and the other healthy, then vice versa, sometimes both hurt.  Not.  The coach’s.  Fault.  

I’d say one of the only really legitimate times when I can remember a coach being justly fired when he was regularly getting his team 50 win seasons and far into the playoffs was Detroit firing Rick Carlisle for Larry Brown.  And in that case, you needed to aim high and go for the hall of fame coach to get that team bumped from Eastern Conf Finals to NBA finals two years in a row.  LB’s pedigree spoke for itself.

But we are talking about Mo f*cking Cheeks and Tony DiLeo.  Chris Ford and Jim O’Brien.  Not exactly top dawgs in the coaching sphere.  Avery Johnson, Jeff Van Gundy, and Eddie Jordan would all make fine replacements and be a HUGE boost for our commander in chief to get our nutty players on the same page.  Doug Collins…I feel he knows the game inside and out, but as Dannie said his slightly above mediocre showings with his three teams, and intense to the point of turning his players off tendencies worry me.

For the rooks…Thibodeau and Budenholzter make the best candidates because they’ve been assistants for long, long times under hall of fame coaches, or have proven to be key cogs in their teams’ success as assistants.  

Anyone else, I don’t know why we’d seriously consider.  

They aren’t inventing the light bulb or the wheel.  Maybe the reason some of the higher profile coaches declined is because they weren’t tops on ES list to begin with.  He needs to court a good coach like a hot chick.  Buy them drinks, smooze them, flowers, whatever it takes.  Besides Cheeks and LB who was the last good coach on this team really.. And Cheeks was ok, good might be a stretch.

Disagree with your point at #35.  Isn’t taking that viewpoint selling a coach’s ability short that can continually get a team far into the playoffs?  So many variables come into play in the 2nd of the playoffs and onward…specifically, matchups and injuries…that often a coach gets slammed undeservedly.  

Is it D’Antoni’s fault that a 20/10 player was not allowed to play in the San Ant. series because of a ridiculous ejection?  Was it Don Nelson’s fault that the Mavs didn’t make the Conf. finals in the early 00’s because Dirk got injured, and that D’Antoni gets extra credit because they played a banged up Mavs team?  Is it Eddie Jordan’s fault that he had THREE ALL STARS injured every year of his tenure, and that the one (and first) season Arenas Butler and Jamison did play healthy, it was only for a half season and they were on pace to win 50+ games?  

I also think it’s a bit shortsighted (just my opinion) to think that a coach has reached his coaching ceiling after just one stint.  Most teachers and leaders take years to grow into their roles where they feel completely comfortable and confident in their abilities.  I’d argue that one or two moderately successful stints and then a firing is a fine thing to have on a resume; one would hope the coach is constantly evolving and learning from his mistakes, and that he will improve even more the next time around and be more motivated to succeed (Avery, Van Gundy).  

I think with rookie coach’s you have to go by reputation and who they’ve assisted for.  So in this scenario, I certainly think Thibodeau is right on par with a good (highlight “good”) coaching re-tread.  But to toss a total rookie out there…a la Del Negro for Chicago or someone like that, I personally think is a ridiculous hire.  

If you can take someone that has legit experience that has proven he can make some positives on the court, I’ll take that over inexperience any day of the week.  Whole different ball game when an assistant becomes a head coach, and there is always an unknown there that is a % of a gamble.  

That said…there are many retreads that are NOT good and are just obvious mediocre talent that keeps floating around.  Brian Hill, PJ Carlamieso, Musselman, T Porter, etc…these are guys I would not want to hire because they didn’t particularly prove all that much during their tenures, even though their teams were .500.  Hence me not loving Casey; he’s still an unknown.  Half a season of the T-Wolves overachieving at .500 (one hell of a feat) is not enoug to convince me he is the stud we need.  Anyone can sweet talk anyone in a front office…I’m sure that’s how Doc originally got his Magic job.  

But Avery, Collins, Van Gundy, and Jordan, while not having one rings or done huge damage in the playoffs, are all veteran coaches that have PROVEN to work.  I want someone in that fold.