Who is the best Phillies team of all time?
There is no way to say for certain, but WhatIfSports gives us fans a unique opportunity to simulate the possibilities, and that is exactly what I will be doing this off-season.
WhatIfSports uses very sophisticated techniques to simulate each pitch and each play of a match-up of your choosing. I suggest you check out the link above and mess around with it yourself. It’s free, and this is not an ad for the website, though it may sound like one.
So what Phillies’ team would make the cut for this tournament? I’m going with 8 teams, like a normal playoff year and I’m not including teams before 1910, because the game was just too different then. Obviously the 2 Championship teams are in (1980, 2008), as are the 2 highest Win % teams (1976, 1977). 1993 and 2009 are both in as the only squads besides ‘76 and ‘77 with 93+ wins, and were both World Series squads. The final 2 teams are World Series participants from different eras, 1915 and 1950.
I’m going to seed them by Win %, with the tie-breaker being run-differential. The seeding is as follows:
- 1976 Phillies
- 1977 Phillies
- 1993 Phillies
- 1915 Phillies
- 1950 Phillies
- 2009 Phillies
- 2008 Phillies
- 1980 Phillies
So the bracket looks like this (this took me longer than it should have)…
WhatIfSports does not simulate 7-Game Series (which these will be), so I will be doing them game-by-game and doing a post for each series with very brief recaps of each game. Each team will use a 4-man rotation, and I will pick an MVP of each series based on the stats (they give you a full box-score and play-by-play for each game).
Any questions?
Any predictions?
First up will be 1976 Phillies vs. 1980 Phillies with the recap up later this week.
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76 club will win 1 game against the 80 squad. The 76 club couldn’t beat the 77 (certainly) or 78 clubs (probably) either, so they have little chance against the 80 club. I see the 64 Phillies choked again, first disintegrating in 1964, and now failing to qualify in this playoff. I think we can once again fault Gene Mauch. Historically, its always eased the pain blaming Mauch even if it wasn’t fair, and it already feels good to do it again.
Just checked out the website. It’s great. Yet another internet distraction to test my discipline.
I would love to see the ‘93 team win this. Those guys were my heros when I was a kid. Then I grew and found out that most of them were crazy (Daulton) and juiced more than Jack Lalane (Dykstra, Incy).
go figure. players used steroids.
Though I wasn’t born until 84 I have studied Phillies history and I would say that either the 76 or 80 Phillies will take this.
KB -
Why no love for the ‘76 team? 101 wins is 101 wins!
I wouldn’t be surprised if the 1915 team shocks us all.
1915 version of Pete Alexander might just be the best player on any of these squads.
side note on Alexander.
Why did the Phillies eliminate Alexander and Chuck Klein’s retired plaques from CBP? They didn’t have numbers, but they had the old-school P’s.
I worked there and I never got an answer to this.
Well, the 76 team was good, and 101 wins is no small feat, but during the run of 76-80, of the division winners (no 79), I thought the least great of all. In part, they got swept by the Reds, Cash was good, but gone by 77 (I think) and Trillo was better. Jim Kaat was on the 76 team, great guy, great career, terrible pitcher by then, Crash Allen was pretty average by then, and I think was left off the playoff roster. Bake McBride, who I thought was terrific was acquired in 77 at he summer trade deadline. Jaybird Johnstone, equally great guy, no as good a player was the main RF on the 76 club. Pitching was better in the other years also. Greatness of the club was maybe exaggerated by some glorified numbers. Like our club this year, they could mash. The 2 best clubs of that era were 77 and 80. I wanna say that either or both of Cristenson and Ruthven were added by then. All that is from memeory, whether the numbers and time of transactions support me fully, I can’t guarantee, but I’m more right than wrong. I think you would find tmy opinion shared by more than half of those that followed the club pretty closely at that time.
McBride was aquired in 77. Johnstone (I think) was the main RF on the 76 club. He platooned some with I forget.
I love the 09 team and their numbers will probably carry them through but I’d take the 80 team over them all if I had to choose one. I think the 08 team could be a sleeper pick because of Lidge.
I’m going by vague childhood memories, but am pretty certain that the guy Johnstone platooned with was Downtown Ollie Brown. Gotta love the nickname.
Downtown Ollie Brown>>
I believe we subscribe to the same childhood memories. It took me about a half hour after I scribbled that note to think of who I at least thought it was, and I still haven’t looked it up, but I’m on board with Ollie.
Far as Pete thinking the 1915 club may shock us, that’s quite possible. I know this tourney is all in fun, and darn close to entirely based on stats, and some of the numbers back then were phenominal, so its possible. And if they win, I don’t see a problem with going to their graves and throwing flowers, but they had the prehistoric edge of light travel, all white players, daylight baseball and lesser training facilities. In reality, they were probably inferior, but more power to em if they win.
For what it’s worth, and he had to be pressed for an answer, last year, Dallas Green concluded that the 08 team would have beat the 80 team because of a slightly better bullpen.
I trust that when this tournament is over, Pete will run the winner against one of the A’s great squads in a City Series.
Why did the Phillies eliminate Alexander and Chuck Klein’s retired plaques from CBP? They didn’t have numbers, but they had the old-school P’s.
I worked there and I never got an answer to this.>>
Pete,
If you worked there and didn’t get a answer, I don’t know that this will help, but I e mailed Bill Conlin the question and all I know for sure is he’s been real good about e mailing back in the past.
Ken,
“I trust that when this tournament is over, Pete will run the winner against one of the A’s great squads in a City Series.”
I will carry my passion for and devotion to the Phils all the way to my grave (and beyond if I can), however, I don’t think it would turn out to be much of a series. From what I have read over the years, I fear that even the worst of their best would be better than the best of our best.
The A’s had two dynastic runs in their history. The first was in the 1910s, when they won the World Series in 1910, 1911, and 1913, and won the AL pennant in 1914. The second was when they won the World Series in 1929 (with a team many believe belongs in the discussion of The Greatest Team of All Time) and 1930, and won the AL pennant in 1931.
I believe their powerhouse teams, loaded with all-time players, and with Connie Mack at the helm would make quick work of most anything we could put up against them.
I found what I thought to be a very interesting article about the free agent ranking system (how Type A and Type B is determined) and what it means for many players on a personal level and for the league as a whole on si.com today.
It’s a long article, so I’ll list the main points below:
Overall, the system boils down to a tax on Type A free agents, which teams must pay in the form of draft picks.
Research shows that on average, a late first-round draft choice will contribute about two major league wins to his team during the first six years of his career.
On the open free-agent market, teams will pay about $4.5 million per win. This means those two wins are worth about $9 million.
What does this all mean? Due to the free-agent draft pick compensation rules, a team that signs a Type A free agent will have to pay what amounts to a $3.5 million tax for the privilege of signing him.
Knowing that they will have to pay this tax on Type A free agents, teams are going to bid less than they would have otherwise.
While this isn’t such a big deal with the mega-free agents, the effect is substantial on less valuable players, for whom $3 million may represent a substantial portion of their pay. For these players, the Type A tag became a sort of scarlet letter that deterred teams from signing them.
Part of the problem with the free-agent compensation system as it stands now is that the rankings it produces aren’t really very accurate.
The problem is particularly acute among middle relievers, whom Elias rates disproportionately highly. The reason is that players are ranked within various positional groups, and relief pitchers have their own group. The problem with this, of course, is that unlike, say, shortstops or first basemen, most relief pitchers have relatively low value. Of relievers, only a small fraction are high-impact players such as stud closers. Therefore, when Elias rates the top 20 percent of relievers as Type A free agents, it ends up including some very mediocre pitchers. As a result, 10 out of the 23 Type A free agents are relievers, including immortals such as Oliver and Hawkins. Such players have no business being classified in the same category as Holliday or Bay, and the fact that they’re overrated by the rankings can really hurt them. Due to the draft picks that must be forfeited to sign these players, many middle relievers see their salary and negotiating power diminished when saddled with the Type A tag.
While the system is really broken for relief pitchers, it’s not so hot for other players, either. For one, center fielders are ranked in the same group as designated hitters, (I had no idea), meaning that center fielders get no credit for playing one of the toughest positions on the diamond. Other oddities include using very few statistics to rate each player, and including antiquated stats such as fielding percentage (even for catchers!) and both wins and winning percentage for starting pitchers. All of these oddities add up to provide a very uneven system of ranking players, which is a shame considering that a player’s Type A designation can have a substantial impact on his marketability.
In its current form, the system does little to ensure competitive balance, since the effective tax does little to deter teams from signing mega-stars such as Teixeira but does have an effect on the marketability and earning power of journeyman free agents who have the misfortune to be labeled Type A free agents.
The A’s had two dynastic runs in their history.>>
It’s funny how he A’s have worked. Be it in Philly, or Oakland, they have had great teams, decimated them because of money, and rebuilt again. Kinda like the Marlins have a habit of doing.
I’m aware that history treats the 29 A’s nicely. And I don’t disagree, but Connie Mack got away with murder in that series. He started Howard Ehmke in Game 1 against the Cubs. And won. So that great year could quite well hve wound up without a World Championship. Ehmke was a very average pitcher who had a mediocore year, hadn’t started in weeks, that sort of thing.