Comments on: Who is the Phils MVP? (And Some Other Stuff) http://www.reclinergm.com/who-is-the-phils-mvp-and-some-other-stuff/ Thu, 09 Feb 2012 03:41:10 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2 By: tk76 http://www.reclinergm.com/who-is-the-phils-mvp-and-some-other-stuff/#comment-19950 tk76 Fri, 18 Sep 2009 15:58:52 +0000 http://www.reclinergm.com/?p=6949#comment-19950 Pretty impressive offensive numbers in both cases.  As I sid before, if Abreu played 2B he would get HOF consideration (if not be a lock with those numbers.) Pretty impressive offensive numbers in both cases.  As I sid before, if Abreu played 2B he would get HOF consideration (if not be a lock with those numbers.)

]]> By: Trillo Fan http://www.reclinergm.com/who-is-the-phils-mvp-and-some-other-stuff/#comment-19942 Trillo Fan Thu, 17 Sep 2009 23:20:13 +0000 http://www.reclinergm.com/?p=6949#comment-19942 <strong>bski et al. </strong>-- Just to be clear, I was <strong>not </strong>comparing Utley with Abreu as overall players.  I think everyone would agree that Utley is far superior in terms of intensity, attitude, and leadership by example, and he does play a more important defensive position.  What I was comparing was their offensive production as #3 hitters in the Phillies lineup.    I would argue that until this year, Abreu in his prime was a slightly better #3 hitter than Utley, just looking at stats and ignoring what effect their respective attitudes have on their teammates (hard to measure anyway).  They both hit a lot of doubles, hit for good power (high 20's or low 30's HR), stole a decent amount of bases (Abreu more, Utley higher pct.), and hit for average.  The one difference was that Abreu drew more walks and saw more pitches (something that he has continued in helping both NYY and LAA). Actually, courtesy of baseball-reference.com, here is an interesting comparison.  Abreu 1999-2005 (includes a couple down years): .305 BA, .415 OBP, .522 SLG, .937 OPS, avg. over 162 games of 112 runs, 180 hits, 43 2B, 25 HR, 99 RBI, 32 SB, 10 CS, 113 BB.  Utley 2005-2008: .305 BA, .380 OBP, .535 SLG, .915 OPS, avg. over 162 games of 120 runs, 193 hits, 46 2B, 31 HR, 112 RBI, 15 SB, 3 CS, 67 BB.  Pretty similar except the walks ... bski et al. – Just to be clear, I was not comparing Utley with Abreu as overall players.  I think everyone would agree that Utley is far superior in terms of intensity, attitude, and leadership by example, and he does play a more important defensive position.  What I was comparing was their offensive production as #3 hitters in the Phillies lineup.    I would argue that until this year, Abreu in his prime was a slightly better #3 hitter than Utley, just looking at stats and ignoring what effect their respective attitudes have on their teammates (hard to measure anyway).  They both hit a lot of doubles, hit for good power (high 20′s or low 30′s HR), stole a decent amount of bases (Abreu more, Utley higher pct.), and hit for average.  The one difference was that Abreu drew more walks and saw more pitches (something that he has continued in helping both NYY and LAA).

Actually, courtesy of baseball-reference.com, here is an interesting comparison.  Abreu 1999-2005 (includes a couple down years): .305 BA, .415 OBP, .522 SLG, .937 OPS, avg. over 162 games of 112 runs, 180 hits, 43 2B, 25 HR, 99 RBI, 32 SB, 10 CS, 113 BB.  Utley 2005-2008: .305 BA, .380 OBP, .535 SLG, .915 OPS, avg. over 162 games of 120 runs, 193 hits, 46 2B, 31 HR, 112 RBI, 15 SB, 3 CS, 67 BB.  Pretty similar except the walks …

]]> By: Pete http://www.reclinergm.com/who-is-the-phils-mvp-and-some-other-stuff/#comment-19941 Pete Thu, 17 Sep 2009 20:48:31 +0000 http://www.reclinergm.com/?p=6949#comment-19941 Rollins all-time Phillies ranks (not making a point, just looked them up and figured I'd share) Runs - 5th Hits - 8th Doubles - 4th (4 behind Abreu) Triples - 5th (3 behind Ashburn) HR - 15th (7 behind Rolen) RBI - 20th Total Bases - 6th Stolen Bases - 4th Rollins all-time Phillies ranks (not making a point, just looked them up and figured I’d share)

Runs – 5th
Hits – 8th
Doubles – 4th (4 behind Abreu)
Triples – 5th (3 behind Ashburn)
HR – 15th (7 behind Rolen)
RBI – 20th
Total Bases – 6th
Stolen Bases – 4th

]]> By: jjg http://www.reclinergm.com/who-is-the-phils-mvp-and-some-other-stuff/#comment-19940 jjg Thu, 17 Sep 2009 20:40:17 +0000 http://www.reclinergm.com/?p=6949#comment-19940 Rollins & Utley:  Guts of the Phillies; got the train rolling and shovel coal regularly. Both building nice resumes.  Are they better than Whitaker & Trammel?  Dunston & Sandberg?  Yount & Molitor (while it lasted)?  Concepcion & Morgan?  Bowa & Trillo (not as offensively flashy, but a <em>very</em> good duo)?                Rollins & Utley:  Guts of the Phillies; got the train rolling and shovel coal regularly. Both building nice resumes.  Are they better than Whitaker & Trammel?  Dunston & Sandberg?  Yount & Molitor (while it lasted)?  Concepcion & Morgan?  Bowa & Trillo (not as offensively flashy, but a very good duo)?               

]]> By: Pete http://www.reclinergm.com/who-is-the-phils-mvp-and-some-other-stuff/#comment-19939 Pete Thu, 17 Sep 2009 20:20:47 +0000 http://www.reclinergm.com/?p=6949#comment-19939 stu- <div></div> <div>Jimmy is 5th among MLB SS in RBI, Feliz is 12th among 3B, and Utley is 2nd among 2B (Aaron Hill has 98 RBI?!) - so by straight run production, they are pretty good.</div> <div></div> <div>Even batting .245, Jimmy is absolutely an above average offensive SS.</div> stu-

Jimmy is 5th among MLB SS in RBI, Feliz is 12th among 3B, and Utley is 2nd among 2B (Aaron Hill has 98 RBI?!) – so by straight run production, they are pretty good.
Even batting .245, Jimmy is absolutely an above average offensive SS.
]]> By: stu http://www.reclinergm.com/who-is-the-phils-mvp-and-some-other-stuff/#comment-19938 stu Thu, 17 Sep 2009 20:16:18 +0000 http://www.reclinergm.com/?p=6949#comment-19938 tk76, last I checked our everyday SS was batting .245 with one of the lowest OBP for leadoff hitters in the MLB.  Couple that with our 3B hitting .266 with 11 HRs, I would argue that our 3B, SS, 2B offensive production is about average for the league even with the anomoly of production at 2B.  tk76, last I checked our everyday SS was batting .245 with one of the lowest OBP for leadoff hitters in the MLB.  Couple that with our 3B hitting .266 with 11 HRs, I would argue that our 3B, SS, 2B offensive production is about average for the league even with the anomoly of production at 2B. 

]]> By: tk76 http://www.reclinergm.com/who-is-the-phils-mvp-and-some-other-stuff/#comment-19937 tk76 Thu, 17 Sep 2009 18:11:53 +0000 http://www.reclinergm.com/?p=6949#comment-19937 It may be fair to compare Utley and Abreu's offensive production- but that does not begin to compare their impact.  Even ignoring the leadership/style issues that can be sujective, you have to look at position. Getting that type of production at 2B makes you talk HOF.  While that same production at RF only leads to all star consideration. That is why I never understood moving a guy like Soriano from 2B to LF.  I don't care if he kills you with his fileding, you never can make up for the production differential of a guy putting up numbers like that at 2B.  Unless you can replace him with a top 5 offensive 2B you are giving up the chance to have a moster offensive line-up by combinig him with even an average offensive LF. I'm not a baseball guy, so maybe someone can explain this to me. Part of why the Phils have such a killer offensive line-up is that they get non-traditional major production at 2B and SS.  That type of luxuy allow the GM so much more flexibility building a team.  I'd guess that most teams with slugging middle infielders end up having top overall team offenses. It may be fair to compare Utley and Abreu’s offensive production- but that does not begin to compare their impact.  Even ignoring the leadership/style issues that can be sujective, you have to look at position.

Getting that type of production at 2B makes you talk HOF.  While that same production at RF only leads to all star consideration.

That is why I never understood moving a guy like Soriano from 2B to LF.  I don’t care if he kills you with his fileding, you never can make up for the production differential of a guy putting up numbers like that at 2B.  Unless you can replace him with a top 5 offensive 2B you are giving up the chance to have a moster offensive line-up by combinig him with even an average offensive LF.

I’m not a baseball guy, so maybe someone can explain this to me.

Part of why the Phils have such a killer offensive line-up is that they get non-traditional major production at 2B and SS.  That type of luxuy allow the GM so much more flexibility building a team.  I’d guess that most teams with slugging middle infielders end up having top overall team offenses.

]]> By: bski http://www.reclinergm.com/who-is-the-phils-mvp-and-some-other-stuff/#comment-19935 bski Thu, 17 Sep 2009 16:03:18 +0000 http://www.reclinergm.com/?p=6949#comment-19935 Trillo Fan, Very interesting that you would compare Utley's offensive numbers to Abreu's.  I think it's safe to say that in the eyes of most Phils fans there is a marked difference in the way each of them is perceived (i.e. Utley---the gritty hustler who goes all out and is always doing something to help the team vs. Abreu---the laid back guy who glides along, who never busts his butt, who puts up good offensive numbers that are mostly hollow, and who could do a lot more if he made an effort). Except for the fact that I always wished he would swing at more perfectly good pitches in an attempt to drive in runs instead of letting RBI opportunities go by while waiting for<em> his</em> pitch, I have always been an Abreu supporter.  Since we were talking about WAR the other day, I thought I would list Abreu's year-by-year WAR numbers to see how they compare with Utley's. 1998: 3.49 (26th) 1999: 3.28 (26th) 2000: 4.76 (11th) 2001: 3.78 (30th) 2002: 5.43 (8th) 2003: 3.49 (18th) 2004: 5.17 (7th) 2005: 3.74 (15th) They look pretty comparable to me. Trillo Fan,

Very interesting that you would compare Utley’s offensive numbers to Abreu’s.  I think it’s safe to say that in the eyes of most Phils fans there is a marked difference in the way each of them is perceived (i.e. Utley—the gritty hustler who goes all out and is always doing something to help the team vs. Abreu—the laid back guy who glides along, who never busts his butt, who puts up good offensive numbers that are mostly hollow, and who could do a lot more if he made an effort).

Except for the fact that I always wished he would swing at more perfectly good pitches in an attempt to drive in runs instead of letting RBI opportunities go by while waiting for his pitch, I have always been an Abreu supporter. 

Since we were talking about WAR the other day, I thought I would list Abreu’s year-by-year WAR numbers to see how they compare with Utley’s.

1998: 3.49 (26th)
1999: 3.28 (26th)
2000: 4.76 (11th)
2001: 3.78 (30th)
2002: 5.43 (8th)
2003: 3.49 (18th)
2004: 5.17 (7th)
2005: 3.74 (15th)

They look pretty comparable to me.

]]> By: stu http://www.reclinergm.com/who-is-the-phils-mvp-and-some-other-stuff/#comment-19932 stu Thu, 17 Sep 2009 15:49:41 +0000 http://www.reclinergm.com/?p=6949#comment-19932 btw, we're now ahead of the Cardinals. btw, we’re now ahead of the Cardinals.

]]> By: Trillo Fan http://www.reclinergm.com/who-is-the-phils-mvp-and-some-other-stuff/#comment-19931 Trillo Fan Thu, 17 Sep 2009 15:21:49 +0000 http://www.reclinergm.com/?p=6949#comment-19931 Without getting into the Team MVP debate, it's worth pointing out that Utley, while experiencing a strange decline in doubles, has more than made up for it with career highs in walks and steals.  His improvement in walk rate is impressive, so that his full-season offensive numbers will look very Abreu-like (talking prime Abreu, not the current version that is still doing well for the Angels). Without getting into the Team MVP debate, it’s worth pointing out that Utley, while experiencing a strange decline in doubles, has more than made up for it with career highs in walks and steals.  His improvement in walk rate is impressive, so that his full-season offensive numbers will look very Abreu-like (talking prime Abreu, not the current version that is still doing well for the Angels).

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