Who is the Second Best Player on This List?

Great debate is right. Crazy to think that we could have Jefferson on our team right now if the Iverson to Boston deal had fallen through. In my book, Jefferson isn’t that far from Howard. A. Jefferson’s beautiful low post game and D. Howard’s inconsistent production near the end of the season should make that 1-2 ranking somewhat blurry. Kevin Martin is great, but I don’t expect any greater improvement on his part. M Ellis and J Smith probably have the most potential to overtake either D Howard or A Jefferson. After all that, I feel pretty comfortable ranking Iguodala third. A great defender, team leader, and continuing improvement in all areas warrant that.

1) tied with D. Howard and Al Jefferson
3) A. Iguodala
4) M. Ellis
5) J. Smith
6) K. Martin

$20 no one mentions the number one overall pick in their top five…

I agree with Raro…I think Al Jefferson, both the second half of his last season with Boston and last year with the T-Wolves, is criminally underrated, to the point he should be ranked with Dwight.

I still have yet to see Dwight Howard’s post game expand by leaps and bounds. He’s become a better enforcer, intimidator, rebounder, defender and shot blocker…but while his inside game and footwork has improved, I don’t think Dwight Howard and say, “Dump it in to Dwight, that’s an automatic bucket” like I would with Duncan, Boozer or Brand. His post game is still extremely raw, and he doesn’t assert himself offensively.

I think in another two years Dwight and Al Jefferson will be the heralded big men of this era, just as Duncan/KG were, with others (Bosh, Amare, etc) sneaking in right below on any given year, just as C-Webb and Dirk did the past decade.

My top 10 of the class:

1. Dwight Howard – Al Jefferson (tie)
2. Josh Smith
3. Iggy
4. Kevin Martin
5. Monte Ellis
6. Andrew Bogut
7. Luol Deng
8. Andris Biedrins
9. Devin Harris
10. Chris Duhon (yes, over Ben Gordon)

I’ve always thought a contract around $11-12 million a year is perfectly fair for Iguodala, and it’s not worth squabbling over an extra half million to one million a year if that’s what he wants to get a bit above market value. Let’s pay the man and get our versatile defensive freak locked up for 6 years.

the problem for the sixers is that they let the other teams determine the market value. With that said i feel that the sixers need to find a way to sign him because with brand it will open up even more chances for Iguodala to score.

Al Jefferson is great… on one end of the floor. Defensively, he’s about as bad as a mobile 7-footer can possibly be. He might have a more refined low-post game than Howard, but Dwight as a rookie was a better rebounder and shot-blocker than big Al will ever be.

As for Andre, I remember that leading up to the draft there were 3 small forwards that were considered lottery picks; Dala, Childress, and Deng. Considering his defensive prowess, I think Andre is the best of that group. Is he a franchise player? It’s hard to say, but considering what he has done over the course of his career so far (in terms of shouldering responsibility, his role on the team, giving a consistent effort, etc.), he has certainly earned a big payday and the chance to prove that he can work with talent. $12.5 mil per year is right in line with that.

It’s also easy to take for granted that Andre has started every game of his career and has played 322 out of a possible 328 games during that span. He is already one of the most durable, hard-working players in the NBA. To me, the only question is, can he be an effective 2-guard? I won’t question that he will bring a lot to the table, but I wonder whether his strengths are slightly redundant on this team.

That being said, even if he were to have a disastrous season at the 2, his contract won’t be so prohibitively large as to make him an untradeable asset. Also, I believe that his skill-set at the 2 makes him an ideal back-court partner for our Sweet Lou. Basically, what I’m saying is, let’s sign this guy and see what he can do with a low-post beast to feed the ball. 6 years, $75 mil.

The sixers are in total control here why yield to Iggy’s demands.

6 years 75 mil that is too much, no other team would come close to offering him that much.

I like Iggy but there is no way Ed should pay him that kind of $ we are not even sure how effective he will be at the 2 guard spot. I still think that Andre stays with the qualifying offer and becomes an unrestricted next year. If he proves this year that he is the 2 guard of the future than you can feel safe investing that kind of $ in him. The franchise only has themselves to blame they have been calling Andre the future of the franchise for acouple years now and now he thinks he should be paid like one.

I am not anti Iggy at all he brings alot to the table, but I think that there are still too many questions about him before you sink that kind of $ into him.

Ben, it was the right move to add the fillers before signing Lou and Iggy. That was the only way they could have gone over the salary cap. That being said 12.5M is reasonable when you look at the market as a whole as laid out by Dannie.

2one5, it would not be in the Sixers best interest to allow him to sign the qualifying offer. Although Iggy has never shown a bad attitude, I would not want him on my team in a “lame duck” season. If Stefanski chooses not to pay him the 12.5M then a sign and trade is the only option.

I think the deal will get done by the end of next week. What’s left to work out? 5 yrs 62.5M or 6 yrs 75M. He could do the LeBron, Wade deal 3 yrs 37.5M, maybe that’s the hang-up.

L.A. Steve – Gotta disagree with your analysis of Andre. You may not be a hater, but you significantly undervalued Andre’s skills.
-You say it’s come easy to him as if getting minutes automatically inflates production. I think the opposite is true. Players that are overrated get exposed the more minutes they play.
-You say he was allowed to shoot anytime he wanted as the #1 option. I think that #1 options have to deal with more defenders and more sophisticated defensive schemes than role-players. The fact that Andre shot 46% this season while dealing with all that attention? Amazing.
-You say he has a below average handle and turns it over too much. I think he is one of the best ball-handling SFs in the game. The last two seasons he averaged 5.7 and 4.8 assists, respectively, while cutting down on his turnovers. Early last season turnovers were a big problem as he adjusted to his role, but in the final 3 months of the season his assist/turnover ratios were 2, 2.24, and 3.39. Those are good numbers for a PG, much less a SF. Throw in the fact that the team had no post-players or outside shooters and… well, you get the picture.
-You say he is far from a defensive stopper. Actually, his steals/minute and rebounds/minute are both top-10 in the league at his position. According to John Hollinger, “he’s a dogged defender who can make up ground in a hurry when beaten, and only needs more experience and a few lessons in screen avoidance to become an All-Defense candidate.” And this is while being expected to be his teams #1 scoring option AND being asked to defend the other team’s best player every night.

What does this all add up to? If Andre had made just 9 more of his 3 pointers last season, he would have shot 36% from downtown and we would be talking about whether to give him +$15 mil a year. Even without those 3-pointers, we’re talking about one of the best two-way players in the league.

But you’re right, why not just subtract the Andres, by far our two best players last season, and hope for the best. Sounds like a plan.

Noah -Wow good post

In response to some comments. I dont think it would be best for the sixers to allow Andre to play this year under the qualifying offer, but if Andre is talking 6 years 75 mil that may happen.

Andre would have to be giving max effort and showing all he can do to showcase his skills for other teams so I dont think this being a “lame duck” season would effect is play.

Also, about losing him once he reaches unrestricted fee agency. I don’t really think that would happen because of the amount of $ he is asking for. Its obvious this offseason Andre and his agent have not found any takers for is contract demands, Even if he were an All-Star this year I dont see a team offering more than 6 years 75 Mil.

Now its poss that Andre will be pissed at the Sixers and take less $ to go somewhere else, or poss someone offers a huge amount of $ and he walks. I just think that post Billy King the sixers have to be very careful about the $ they spend. As I said in my other post we don’t know if Andre is the future at the 2 spot. If we sign him to that kind of deal and he struggles than we might be talking about trading Thad because we are already locked into Andre. I dont want to do that. If he proves this year he is able to be the starting 2 guard on a championship contending team than offer him the contract he wants and feel comfortable doing so.

Andre Iguodala: Turned down 57 for 5 last summer. Followed with a good, but not great year; got totally punked in Pistons series. Now wants 75 for 6? He’s looking in a funhouse mirror. Try makin’ an all-star team first, Iggy, before you attempt to stride among the elite, dollar-wise . L.A. Steve, amen to much of your analysis. Due to lack of team talent since his arrival, Iguodala has been given an inordinate amount of room to grow by the organization. Fans have endured his “scribble” and (unfinished) learning on the job. As I’ve said before, he’s got some nerve to expect boffo bucks for his B grade game. In truth, Sixers are partly to blame for his distorted outlook because they helped create the mythology of AI2 for their own marketing purposes.

The open question here is whether or not AI can be as good a 2-guard as he has been as a SF. Because of this, there may be an advantage to both sides to a shorter contract – maybe 3 years – at his current market value of $12.5 m (as a SF). At the end of 3 years, if AI has proved himself to be a near all-star 2-guard or better, then his market value will be higher and he’ll get paid by either the Sixers or someone else. If he not as good as a 2-guard he’ll get whatever he can get.

Dave T, difficult to disagree with your well thought out statements. I still think you stick to a number and don’t extend too far with the contract. I like 5 yr 60 mil for Andre. I also would consider a 3 yr 12.5 mil per contract . One thing that bugs me is how the players are becoming offended if their teams don’t go above and beyond for them. I respect Elton Brand but the statements regarding the sixers extending as far as they could but the Clippers not even though they offered more money kind of bugs me. I realize their were other factors with his/agents relationship with the clippers but…… I don’t know……….

@sfw

How different are 5 years 60 million and 6 years 75 million?

Well, they are identical for 5 years…. 10, 11, 12, 13, 14. The only difference is the 15 added on there. So, when you think about it, you are really not at odds with the amount, but rather the length. Does that make a lot of sense?

Iguodala will also be receiving a contract that takes up a smaller % of the cap than Sammy’s did when it was initially signed, so he isn’t getting a crazy contract here. 6 years 75 is not max money.

Again, given the ability he’s shown, especially as compared to his fellow draft-mates, 12-13 mil is the going rate, for better or worse. Throw everything else out the window.

The Sixers could decide that he does not fit at SG, but that is another question altogether. The money issue has been settled by the market. I expect a deal this week unless the reluctance is based upon team structure issues.

Normally, I don’t respond to post that disagree with me, (freedom of opinion), but today I’ll make an exception. Since Noah and a few others took issue with to my last post, I thought I’d post some numbers to support my opinion. The first area I looked at was Andre’s shooting stats. Last year Andre’s FG% was .456 which ranked 77th among all NBA Players. His FT% was .721 and that ranked 121 among all NBA players. His 3pt% was .329, and ranked somewhere below the top 100 NBA players, I cannot give his exact ranking because my stats only listed the top 100, and he was somewhere below that.

Last year Iggy played 3,247.2 minutes, that’s 82 games, averaging 39.6 mpg. He led all small forwards in minutes played. Because of his extensive PT, I present two set of rebounding stats, in order to get a more realistic idea of how he preformed in this area. Rebounds per game (rpg), and rebounds per 48 minutes played, (rp48). The rp48 gives a more accurate picture, because it eliminates the benefit of receiving additional playing time. Last year Andre averaged 5.4 rpg, and ranked 59th among all players; Additionally, he averaged 6.6 rp48, ranking 123rd. Against his peers, (small forwards only), Andre averaged 5.4 rpg and ranked 11th. However, in the rp48 category he averaged 6.6 rebounds, and ranked 36th among all small forwards.

In the area of turnovers, Andre committed 214 last year, averaging 2.61 topg, which ranked 16 highest. Compared to only small forwards, he ranked 6th highest.

Based on the information above, I find it hard to rationalize a $75 million contract, it just doesn’t make any sense. But it’s not just the numbers, I watched every game he played last year and, in my opinion, his skills were more suited to that of a key role player, rather than a star scorer. Better suited for a 3rd scoring option on a contending team. His shooting/scoring ability just isn’t strong enough to merit being the number one option on a contending team. I know this upsets some people, and I’m sorry for that. However, I believe that in today’s NBA, with the salary cap, and luxury tax, it’s lethal to overpay talent on a large contract. When this happens you can’t move the player, you can’t sign any free agents, you’re in cap hell. That’s why the good GM’s don’t overpay for talent. This involves making tough decisions, and sometimes, letting a good player walk. In spite of this, I believe Ed will, probably, resign him. I expect he’ll overpay too, I just hope it isn’t too much.

L.A. Steve – If the Sixers expected Iguodala to be “a star scorer” I would agree with your point 100%.

We’re not upset with you or your position, we’re trying to show you the big picture when it pertains to Iggy and his role on THIS YEARS TEAM. His versitility, unselfish nature, team leader, things like that shows his value not just pure stats.

6yrs 75M is the going rate as set by the players at his postition and from his draft class. It is overpaying when all of the other teams have the same financial data that’s been posted on this blog. If Stefanski held firm at say 10M – 11M per season he will lose this guy no question.

To anyone asking if Iguodala can play the SG position, I don’t think that will be an issue because the 2 and 3 spots on this team is more of an 2.5 meaning the lines are so blurred that he’ll play the 2 on offense and could guard the 3 if needed.

its crazy to me that with the exception of Dannie’s brilliant initial post, Ben Gordon has not been mentioned here at all. Dave T, you must be kidding with your list (Do you just have a personal issue with him?). Gordon has put his team on his shoulders numerous times and is nothing short of a ballz to wall winner. in your stat analysis should try to find out how many 4th Qtr game winning buzzer beaters Gordon has made. i assure you this number will be higher than Iggy will ever accumulate in his entire career. putting guys like ben gordon in the right situation is what wins championships.

1. Dwight Howard
2. Al Jefferson

all these guys are so close its really hard to put them in order. depending on the makeup of the rest of the team, i could eaily take any one of these guys over the other
3. Josh Smith
4. Okafor
5. Iguodala
6. Ben Gordon
7. Kevin Martin

lower tier
8. Monte Ellis
9. Luol Deng
10. Andris Biedrins

Just checked out 82games.com, the +/- people. Last season, Igoudala was the 16th most productive player in situations defined by “4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points.” Ben Gordon was the 5th best.

Morty, You can have all the neighborhood “comps” you want but you still gotta love the “house” to pay a premium such as Iguodala’s asking. He’s got some good features but some real areas of weakness that scream restoration, as L.A. Steve statistically pointed out. And certainly, as in football, positions matter financially; good bigs – Howard, Jefferson, Okafor – are rarer breeds than scoring swing players. To compare their salaries with Iguodala is tortured logic, and a bit of obfuscation on the part of his fan club. And to agree to satisfy his present demands because the Bulls and Knicks overpaid for their supposed “McMansions” (Deng, Duhon) is imprudent investing for the long haul. You (among others) have held flawed Willie Green to a tough standard of performance, often calling for his ouster. With that in mind, I’m surprised you’re in support of offering a penthouse contract to a prominent but obviously flawed 6′ 6″ swingman, a fairly common basketball species. I hope Stefanski doesn’t give in. If ya gotta break the bank, gimme Gordon in a sign-and-trade.

dre – your opinion of “clutch” is ridiculous. im not trying to make stats say anything. the guy flat out wins games at the buzzer and he has done it so many times there really isnt an argument here.

i think what you are trying to say is that since Gordon takes more 4th qtr shots, he has more opportunity to win games. Look, nobody will give you the ball with 10 secs left unless you are a leader, a winner, and they trust that you can score. so, id say thats a good thing. Teammates get him the ball because they want him to take the last shot, because he is a big-time player. Not sure how one can even think that Gordon is not a clutch perfromer unless there is some personal issue with the guy . I’d take him shooting at the buzzer over losers like T -Mac any day of the week.

i notice you dont defend Iggy’s clutch ability. thats because you must realize that he can’t handle that role. Iggy came up so limp in the playoffs it was embarrassing. i have no idea what is with the love affair some of you have with the guy. dunks and olley-oops are only worth 2 points. the Sixer front office marketing spin has really put some of you guys in a trance.

dre, If you continue to say “ole” to the contracts these clowns want, eventually you, as a paying fan, and most others, will be priced out of the “climate.” We pay, not Snider, Lukko and Stefanski.

“His [Gordon's] defense is a downgrade.” A contestable assertion. How often did Iggy put opponent’s top scorer in his pocket last season? Rumors of his consistently strong defense are just that -
rumors.

The league calls for overpaying? Hardly. It calls for franchise solvency and league prosperity at minimum risk – that’s about it. Outrageous contracts can be avoided by prudential organizations, to a 2008 extent.

Gordon didn’t start? So what? He finished! John Havlicek and Billy Cunningham didn’t start on their respective teams for a number of years. Didn’t stop them from being named to the NBA’s top 50 players of all-time. Could Ben be bound for the Pantheon? Certainly, Iggy ain’t.

A good shooter and a winner like Gordon fits the Sixers’
needs.

jjg: How much would you value Gordon relative to Igoudala, monetarily? Good point about Okafor, but Deng is an exact comp. By the way, looking at Bogut and Okafor, suddenly Sammy’s contract seems almost reasonable, not in retrospect, but for the future.

As for not accepting Green’s flaws while accepting Igoudala’s flaws? Please, but with all due respect, you are smarter than that. The disparities between Green and Igoudala could fill the Atlantic, and are not worth a conversation.

McKie:

Actually, Igoudala was the 16th highest scorer in “clutch” situations, averaged out per 48 minutes. He averaged 37 points on 48.5% shooting. He also picked up his rebounding to 10 per 48 minutes, and got to the line 18 times. Gordon was the 5th highest scorer, averaging 43 points per 48 “clutch” minutes, but took 28 shots to Igoudala’s 20. Check it out at 82games.com.

McKie: Should have said “scorer” instead of “productive” in my first post. Sorry for any confusion.

Morty, For the cause of increasing 1/2 court offensive punch, balance and close-out shooting, Gordon is worth as much or more than Iguodala in my estimation. As I said, if Stefanski’s gonna throw money around, I’d rather he throw it at him.

As for Deng being an exact comp, I consider Luol to be superior to Iguodala offensively, better shooter, more conventional fit. That Bulls lavished him with 71 for 6 is their problem, and on the offensive end of the court, their advantage.

Didn’t come close to saying Green is a comparable player to Iguodala (though their contributions aren’t as widely disparate as some like to believe), only that you rhetorically thrash Willie (who’s made his way back from knee surgery) at every opportunity but seemingly give healthy Iguodala a softer eye in assessment, despite 4 yrs. of recorded uneven results. Just called into question the evaluation consistency in view of your ‘thumbs up’ to a big, lengthy contract for Andre the Bricklayer. (No, I don’t like his game much once the defensive overplaying and fast-breaking comes to a halt…helluva dunk contestant though.)

jjg:

I understood what you meant about evaluating the faults of a player, it’s just that these are players on two different levels, and that the effect on the court of their various holes, is so vast as to not be worth much discussion in my opinion.

But I’ll explicate a bit. We all agree, I’m sure, that every player has some weaknesses to go with their strengths, so we evaluate players on the whole. Igoudala’s faults, which most here acknowledge, on the whole do not detract from the fact that overall he is an above average player. Green’s strengths, on the whole, do not take away from the fact that, on the whole, he is a (well) below average player. In other words, Igoudala does so many positive things on the court that we pay less attention to the bad things. Green does so many bad things on the court, that we overlook the positive things. Nothing wrong with that, in my opinion, gotta see the forest despite the trees.

@Aaron Mckie:

I have nothing personal against Ben Gordon. But when pitted against some of the other guys I ranked above him, here’s my rational:

-Monte Ellis. I will ALWAYS take a guy that is the better and more efficient scorer, then a better 3 point shooter that is streaky and shoots poorly overall (Gordon). Monte Ellis’ improvement in the last two years is nothing short of staggering. This is a kid that has come out of high school and has raised his FG% from 41% (Gordon’s avg) to 47% and then 53%.

He is 21. He is an incredibly crafty scorer. He is one of the best finishers in the NBA, and his ability to change speeds on a drive is phenomenal, one of the more rare and most overlooked traits in basketball. He’s very much in the D Wade mold in that he can go on 20-30 point bursts without hitting a single three…and without needing to, and is right up there with Devin Haris, Barbosa and AI’s younger years as far as quickest players in the NBA. Personally if I was a GM, I wouldn’t want either Ellis or Gordon as a SG, but if I had to choose, I’m taking Ellis in a heartbeat.

-Biedrins: I think he is one of the most underrated players in the league. I remember watching his box scores during his rookie year when he barely got any minutes, but when he was put in for 10-15 minutes a game would throw up stats like 8 pts, 8 brds, 1 blk in that amount of time. This is a guy who, when given minutes, is an automatic double double. He is one of the best “productive per minute” players in the NBA, and his FG% speaks for itself.

He’s also one of the VERY rare European big men that is tough and plays a physical brand of basketball. The difference between him, and, say, a Varajao (another guy that at first glance is comparable) is that Biedrins has absurdly long arms and is a great strong as well as weakside shot blocker. He is an EXCELLENT team defender, and does a nice job in one on one situations as well. Most underrated is his post game…he’s improved every year and has surprisingly good footwork and quickness for a big man.

The only reason his stats aren’t even higher is because Nellie has always been known for just insane lineup changes on the floor, and coaching far too intuitively, yanking guys in and out which can mess with the team chemistry and non stable minutes for players. G State also has had logjam issues in the PF/C positions until last year…so I’d say to put up 10 pts, 10 boards and 2 blocks per, in 28 mpg in your first “official” year to get legit minutes…at age 23…is far more valuable then a 41% FG undersized shooting guard. I’ve watched this guy real closely…I’m convinced if he got 35 minutes per game he’d probably average 13 pts, 12.5 boards and 2.5 blocks or so, similar to Camby.

-Kevin Martin: Would you rather have a rock solid, Reggie Miller/Rip Hamilton like SG with one of the best midrange games in the country, that is one of the best players at moving without the ball, one of the best at coming off screens, that doesn’t hog the ball, that has GREAT decision making and shot selection, and is a great three point shooter that has become a reliable hub and 22-24 ppg scorer for a team…or Ben Gordon, who, yes, has balls of steel and is very clutch, and can score in bursts, but who doesn’t understand nearly the same amount of nuances of the game as the first, has a poor midrange game, horrible shot selection, not a good passer, and shoots a crappy %. I’ll take the more consistent, bball IQ, rock solid team guy over the inconsistent streaky undersized guard any day.

-Chris Duhon – Most people will slam me on this…but I think this guy is just flat out disrespected. He’s been logjammed in Chicago with Hinrich and Gordon for years. Logjams = split minutes = only 20-25 mpg = your stats and game has a ceiling. PG is the most important position in basketball, and he is a classic, throwback, Mark Jackson like pass first point that can flat out run a team. If NYC cuts Marbury this year, Duhon could pull what Calderon did last year and shock people with his assist count. Any time Hinrich or Gordon has been injured and Duhon gets more minutes, he puts up 7-9 assists per game with efficient scoring. He’s also an excellent, tough nosed defender, and just doesn’t get sloppy or make mistakes. 6′3 SG’s that can score 20 ppg and shoot a low % come out of college every year. Sure, Ben Gordon is better then most and VERY clutch…but a lot of players have comparable games. I’ll take the assist machine PG over that.

L.A. Steve – you make a lot of good points. Really, everybody is making a lot of good points. It’s a commentary on how advanced basketball analysis has gotten that everybody is coming up with solid stats to back up their opinions. I guess my main point is better framed outside of the world of statistics, which is this;
Over the last two years, Andre has been asked to fill a role (primary ball-handler, shooter, penetrator, and defender) that is not commensurate with his skill set, in a situation (no outside shooters or low-post players) that basically was setting him up to fail. Instead, he has flourished. As the team around him improves over the next couple of years, and with the weapons we have added, I think his skills (driving to the hoop, one-on-one defense, midrange shooting) will be showcased while his flaws (outside shooting, the tendency to do too much and get caught in the air on offense) will be less visible. I am really looking forward to seeing what he can do when he is allowed to focus on doing a few things really well as opposed to having to do everything.

With what he brings to the table, and in light of the contracts of comparable players, I think that $12.5 mil is an appropriate number.

McKie – I never said he wasn’t cluch in the classic sense of the term. What I said was if he was so good he would have started in front of Nocioni or later Larry Hughes. You’re right it is how you finish like Mark Ivaroni starting ahead of Bobby Jones. The difference is that 6ers’ team was good and the Bulls sucked, his own team gave Kirk Hinrick a big contract then drafted another PG number 1 overall. They gave Deng a big contract even after Joakim Noah put a dent in his PT (after they aquired Gooden). Tell me IS HE GOOD ENOUGH FOR THIS TEAM?

You’re right again because I thought Elway was overrated.

jjg – when it comes to paying a pro athlete (no matter the sport) the rates are determined by similiar talent and Iguodala’s market value was set by those similiar to him, a hybrid 2/3 drafted in the top ten of his class. You either pay him or get equal value for him and in my opinion Ben Gordon is not equal value.

Random question & thought:

With a re-signed Iguodala, I believe we’ll have the 12 players needed to fulfill our active roster. I forget what the current rule is though for how many players a team is required to have signed total. I know 12 = active roster, and a team can have a total of 15, leaving three inactive.

But are teams allowed to go into the season with 12 only, only or are they actually technically requred to go over that number? Obviously most teams do given the need to have 3rd stringers in case of injuries…and I know it’s common for some teams to choose to only have 14, or even 13 players instead of the 15, given on how much they like their roster and how much they want to spend. Given how close we are to the cap space, I would think the Sixers would opt to have 13 or 14 players if that’s required by the NBA, and not hit that 15 threshold.

If this is the case, I’d say the next move would be to sign an insurance, veteran big man (the role Calvin Booth had last year). I think it would be great to sign Theo Ratliff for the vet minimum. Given the fact that the Pistons just handed Kwame a two year-8 million deal, and also just resigned Walter Hermann, that gives them a frontcourt of Prince, ‘Sheed, Mcdyess, Maxiel, Kwame, Amir Johnson, and Hermann…aka: Ratliff ain’t coming back.

When it comes to filling out the roster with spare parts, I think it’s great when the team can sign a guy that fills a need…in this case, a shot blocking, defensive big guy…that also is a guy fans will love to have back. Ratliff finally seemed healthy last year and put in some surprisingly effective minutes for the Pistons when he was allowed 10-15 minutes a game. Would be a nice pickup for our team I think (unless he is currently on a two year vet minimum deal, and the Pistons still retain him). Another guy that could fill this role would be Francisco Elson.

Dave T., beg to differ on the Ellis/ Gordon debate; 43% f.g., 42% 3pt.,86% f.t., 18 ppg. in 30 min. compared to 50% fg., 29 % 3pt., 77% f.t., 16 ppg. in 32 min. is pretty close and Ellis is in a system that promotes scoring with little defensive effort while Gordon, like Iggy, hasn!t had a low post threat to work with. That being said, if we could get Gordon for 10 mill. per along with say, Sefalosa, or Iggy for over 12 mill., I would consider it but I wouldn!t pay Gordon or Ellis the same even though they are better down the offensive end.

Suede…I’m not a stats guy at all, and I think John Hollinger is an abomination of sports analysis…but I will answer your post with a statistical mindset.

Your using their career average stats. Of course if you do that, the two players will look the same. The whole point in my argument is Ellis’ improvement year to year in a three year span. Ellis FG% of his rookie year has jumped from 42%…to an already very good 48%…and then even higher to 53% last year. Gordon has gone from 41%, 42%, 45%, 43%.

To compare last year’s statistics alone…they both took an equal amount shot attempts per game (15 FGA). Given those same amount of shots, Ellis hit them at a 53% clip. Gordon hit his at a 43% clip. In baseball, that would be like saying a .250 hitter is having as good as season as a guy averaging .300.

More impressive is the fact of HOW they play in their respective systems. Monte Ellis plays in a run n gun, fast breaking offense. He plays more minutes than Gordon (38 mpg), and shoots less, and hits them at a higher clip. This shows the ultimate restraint possible…in a high octane offense, to not just jack up whatever is available, but wisely select when to shoot and drive in the flow of the offense. The way Ellis performs his offense in a G-State/Phoenix/Toronto like system is extremely impressive and efficient.

Most impressive is that, like Wade, he’s not shooting 3’s to do achieve this. In watching the guy, this translates to Ellis having a truly great midrange game (a lost art)…his 17-20 foot jumpshooting is excellent, and he is a surprisingly good finisher around the basket on drives.

Gordon, on the other hand, in six minutes less per game (32mpg), in an offense far more slow, paced and half court oriented, has shot an equal amount of shots as Ellis (not a good thing), at a FAR worse clip (43%). While, statistically, his passing has improved (2 apg to 3 apg), passing is obviously not a strength. Monte, when having gotten equal minutes, has proved to be a very effective passer and team player.

Throwing away stats, and in just watching them…Gordon’s midrange game is very, very flawed. He is constantly willing to sacrifice team play and jack up 3 point bomb after 3 point bomb. He isn’t particularly strong on midrange jumpshots, and misses a lot of dribble and pops from around the FT line. He doesn’t make the extra pass, and has a tendency to overdribble on the perimeter. His plusses are: great 3 point shooting, the “Sam Cassell balls of steel” clutch gene, and that he is a great physical presence in attacking the basket and getting to the FT stripe (which he doesn’t do nearly as much as he should).

Ellis, on the other hand, in an offense where most players run rampant on out of control, wild play…remains poised, takes very selective shots in the offense, has always involved his teammates and looks for the extra pass, has sick handle for a two guard, is on another level of quickness, and at a far younger age, has come up with some monster games of his own when it matters. He is incredibly crafty and his bball IQ and knowledge of the game have improved drastically over a three years period. He’s 21…sky’s the limit.

All that said…as far as the Sixers concerns, I do think Ben Gordon would be a very, very good fit (far better then Monte Ellis). But I am under no circumstances willing to trade away Iggy for anything until AFTER we see him this season gelling with Thad and Brand. As Noah and others have said…I feel Iggy’s strengths are going to shine through this year, and I think people are underrating how good he’s going to look in a halfcourt set now that he’s not our alpha offensive option. I can see him getting 18 ppg, 6 rbs, 5-6 asts, while shooting more efficiently and getting back to his defensive ways of the first two years.

Not a gordon fan. Piss poor shot selection and defensive issues based upon sight not stats. Can he be reigned in? I don’t know. Between the two, I’d prefer Iggy because I think defense and versitility first. For the stat guys. As with Deng could incentives be used to pad Iggy’s salary? If so, what stat’s(Team or individual) would be appropriate? By the way. The passion being conveyed on the blog is off the charts. Very good thing and the season hasn’t even started.

I’m jumping in here really late in the discussion. There have been about a zillion very good points and counterpoints made so far. In looking at the Iguodala situation, I am going to try to strip it down to it’s essence as it pertains to us. I am not going to concern myself with comparing him to other players, with sign and trades, or anything else that can muddy the waters.

I am going to go back to what I said under the topic about how agents and teams negotiate contracts. I mentioned how difficult it must be to tease out who is a good player in and of himself and who makes his teammates better from the guys who are made to look better by the others they play with.

So, I ask myself, which one is Iguodala? Well, looking at the Sixers, who on the roster has the capability of making Iguodala appear to be better than he really is? Who do we have that can raise Iguodala’s game to the point where we are fooled into thinking he is a very good player? Since the departure of Iverson, the only player we’ve had who is capable of raising Iguodala’s level of play by any appreciable amount is Miller. Who else? Dalembert? Possibly a little. Evans? I wouldn’t think by very much. Green? I don’t think so. That covers the starters. What about the bench? Young is the only guy I see here that could noticably elevate Iguodala’s play. Williams? Maybe he gives a slight bump. Smith? Nope. The rest aren’t even worth mentioning.

Looking at it this way, it’s pretty clear to me that Iguodala is not a guy with a mediocre game that looks a lot better than he is because of who is on the floor with him. I think it is the other way around. Just flip all those questions around and ask if Iguodala raises the level of play for Dalembert, Evans, Green, and the rest.

Now, I am in no way saying that Iguodala is a #1 level player in this league or that he has no holes in his game. What I am saying is that I think he is very valuable to THIS TEAM. There have been a lot of stats and percentages and numbers per 48 minutes, etc…posted all along this thread. For the most part, they have been used to illustrate Iguodala’s shortcomings. I want to flip those around as well. I think that the main reason why Iguodala’s numbers may suffer across the board is because we have NEEDED him to put up numbers across the board. To his credit he has stepped up as best he could and tried to deliver for us in many areas. Maybe if he were more selfish and he focused on only a few areas he could have put up better numbers there, but he would have left us more holes elsewhere. It appears that the Sixers have been asking for a bit too much from him. It’s not his fault that we’ve been a couple horses short and I don’t think he should be pilloried for trying to fill some of the gaps and maybe coming up a bit short.

I believe that with Brand here it will take a good chunk of the load off Iguodala’s shoulders. Even a guy like Ivey will help because Iguodala won’t need to run the offense or handle the ball as much as he’s done when Miller is on the bench. I expect that we will get more from him by asking a bit less of him.

I certainly see Iguodala as a solid #2 on this team, if not in the league as well. We have already invested 4 years in him and he is still on the upside of his career. With all of this in mind, I don’t see $12.5 mil per year or a 6 year deal as way out of line.

Bad news on the Iggy front; Just got an Iggy jersey as a birthday gift, hope I get to wear it before its out of style.

P.S:

Caught a few Sixers GM and player interviews on random podcasts and Google searches during the past two weeks, which touch on a lot of the stuff we’ve discussed at ReclinerGM. Five interesting and positive notes:

-Lou Williams was asked on how he sees himself position wise, and what role he will have on this team. He answered saying that his best attributes are being used as a SG on the Sixers, coming in to provide energy and a myriad of ways to score, and that he’ll do whatever’s asked of him with no complaint.

-Ed Stafanski not only raving about Mareese Speight’s play in the summer league, but more importantly noting how since day one he’s basically come in and worked his tail off, going “110%” in every practice, scrimmage, workout and games they’ve had. Ed is a pretty blunt, no nonsense guy…and even though all GMs have smoke screen involved, he really sounded like he meant it, as opposed to just a run of the mill sound bite. He also mentioned that on draft day, out of the Sixers “basketball brass” there was one dissenter very against taking Speights, and everyone else wanted him as their 1st option.

-Ed Stefanski, after signing Brand sent Thad a text message saying, “The 3 spot is yours to win” Thad’s reply: “Believe me, I’m going to win it.” That’s the kind of hunger I like to hear, and hearing that makes me a bit more reassured that Willie Green or Lou Williams will not be our starting SG, and that Iggy will be sliding into that role.

-Ed, on being asked about Iggy’s ability to spot up and hit shots given more floor spacing from the Brand signing, basically said he fully expects Iguodala’s shooting to improve, that he’s only 24, it’s common for young players’ shots to improve with the type of repetition Igyy’s been putting in, that he’s worked all summer on his shot, and while he may not be a lights out shooter like Korver, they expect him to be more and more reliable from behind the arc as his career goes on. He also mentioned how having Brand will let Iguodala, Lou, Thad and Rush get a lot more set shots with their feet planted, as opposed to having to create their own.

-Ed mentioned that once Kareem Rush signed, the Sixers view him as by far their best 3 point option, and that he feels Kareem is going to get tons of open looks given how much attention Brand commands, and that he has a green light to pull the trigger from long distance at pretty much any time. He also described Royal Ivey as a 94 foot defender that will give other guards headaches, and loves the defensive versatility and different lineup combinations Ivey will allow the backcourt to have given his 6′5 height and 6′10 wingspan.

I’m not sure that my last post will bring a lot of you around to my way of thinking about Iguodala. Like I said, I think he is good in and of himself and he raises the level of play of the others on the floor with him. In my mind, this is the type of guy I want on my team. This is also the type of guy you pay and keep, even if you do over pay a bit.

I am going to try to illustrate what I was talking about before regarding Iguodala trying to fill many holes and having his numbers suffer a bit across the board. Stay with me because the analogy is a bit off the wall.

Back in my youth, I was a swimmer. I don’t know if any of you have any knowledge in that area, so let me explain. There are four strokes in swimming: freestyle, backstroke, breaststroke, and butterfly. Now, obviously very few people are great at each stroke (just like very few NBA players are great shooters, great defenders, great ball handlers, and great passers all at once). Each person is stronger in one or two strokes than in the others. Because of this, each swim team has holes to fill (the weaker strokes of your swimmers) during the races of a meet. (Just like any NBA team has to fill the holes created by the deficiencies of their players).

Now, if my team is weak in the backstroke, who will swim it? Backstroke might not be my strongest, but I might be the best backstroker on the team. So, I step up for the team and swim the backstroke events. I might only finish third in those races, but I’m still picking up points for my team that we would not get otherwise. From the outside, people might want to beat me up because I did not win a race in the backstroke for the entire season. From the inside, however, I am a valuable member of my team. I was unselfish (after all, I could have refused to swim anything but my strongest events and piled up wins for myself) and did what was best for the team. I might not have been the best, but I was the best option on my team for those races.

This is exactly how I view Iguodala. Some of you are down on him because he didn’t do this or that well enough. I agree with some of it, like ball handling and 3-pt shooting, but only up to a point. Just ask yourself who on the team, other than Iguodala, would have been a better option to take on the load in these areas? Even though he may not have been the best team leader, who would have done a better job as the go to guy? Even though he may have handled the ball a bit too much and turned it over more than we would like, who (excluding Miller) on this team would you prefer handling these duties. The same goes for 3-pt shooting and the rest.

We had no clear number one go to guy in several areas last year. I’ll give you that Iguodala wasn’t the best at handling a lot of those duties, but I think he was our best option in many cases. You just can’t beat him up for stepping up, trying to fill holes, and doing what’s best for the team.

my guess is Aaron McKie

Dannie…I meant scoring efficiency “doesn’t ONLY have to do with jumpshooting / shooting %”. Mistype on my end, my bad about that. The whole point of my post was meant to say that I think there are about 6 major variables of what constitutes an “efficient” scorer…and that one of those major cogs is FG% and other statistics, but that there are other things just as important.

I’m guessing the mistype was why you felt my post was too cut and dry…I feel my views are the opposite, and that in viewing efficiency from a mix of several pieces of statistics, as well as several pieces of the more subjective “watching the game” aspects, is the only way to truly get a gauge on this term for a player.

Thus with Jamison I was using him vs. Augustin as examples of the latter, non statistical definition of the term…whereas statistically someone like Jamison that shoots in the 45% – 46% range, along with other stats, are more mediocre to pretty good but not great-ish. I would never, ever say you didn’t need both aspects…and obviously if a guy doesn’t shoot well % wise, he can’t be efficient at something. Think we just had a miscom with each other’s posts on that point, and are kind of saying similar things about needing to judge it from multiple criteria.

Also Dannie…I think there is a difference between being good or talented at something, and being “efficient” at something. Ben Gordon is a very, very good scorer, and an extremely good three point shooter. Just like Allen Iverson, Baron Davis, and Gilbert Arenas are all extremely talented scorers. But I wouldn’t call any of them “efficient” players, as the word itself means “performing or functioning in the best possible manner with the least waste of time and effort”. The fact that Ben Gordon is a great three point shooter, which no one can argue, I just don’t see correlating to an overall efficient offensive player, and listed my reasons in the previous posts.

Sorry for getting so off topic with all this Monte vs. Gordon stuff, but it’s interesting to see just how subjective some of these terms we throw around can be. I always have the utmost respect for your opinions with bball Danny, and don’t mean to be splitting hairs with you at all.

@Dannie – i like Aaron McKie because he came into the league as a virtual scrub (this was still my opinion of McKie when he was first came to Philly). i once coined this guy as the second worst NBA starting SG of all-time (he shot under 40% in his first 2.5yrs in Philly). Marc Macon was #1.

but over a few years he really turned himself into a darn good player. in a sport with so many guys that thrive on natural athletic ability, collect their millions, and never really work hard to improve their game, this guy really earned his stripes the hard way. “The Steady Hand of Aaron McKie” – the guy never made mistakes.

i remember having McKie on my championship fantasy team one year and the guy was a stat filler (i think when AI was hurt). putting up triple doubles, great FG%, assisting, rebounding, stealing, draining 3’s. i could not believe that this guy was that good. watching games he always seemed to just knock down shots when needed, had great fundamentals, didnt really make any horrendous plays and just played his role to perfection. when iverson went down, he would step up and actully light teams up.

just a guy that never complained and always delivered when called on.

i hope this answers your question.

JJG: Swimming was probably not the best analogy. Either that or I did not use it properly to make my point. I was not directly comparing individual skill sets or requirements for performance between the two sports. I realize that there is much more individual specialization and isolated performance in swimming. Even with that in mind, however, there are many NBA players who would qualify as swimmers as far as how they help their team. The league has many 3-pt specialists, lock down defenders, rebounders, energy and hustle guys, etc…who are asked only to provide a very specific skill set to their team in order to fill a need. You know, the role players.

I was attempting to discuss deficiencies at the team level and how, as a team, you go about filling your holes with what you’ve got. In our case specifically, we were down a 3-pt shooter after the Korver trade, struggled to run our offense when Miller went to the bench, and needed a go to guy when we had to have a bucket down the stretch, among other things. All I am saying is that Iguodala was the best chance this team had at filling many of its holes.

I never said, nor am I naive enough to think, that Iguodala nobly stepped into the breach to be our heroic savior. Even if being noble is on the list of reasons, I’m sure it ranks below money(cashing in on a big payday), respect(from both within your team and throughout the league), pride(in showcasing your abilities), as well as a few others.

Whatever the reasons, the fact remains that he did attempt to shoulder more of the load and I think his numbers suffered a bit because of it. At this point of his career, it was too much for him. This may remain the case for his entire career as well. Regardless, I see him as a player who makes his teammates better. (Not tremendously better, but noticeably)

I get that you don’t see Iguodala that way. Either I’m seeing something that isn’t there or I’ll have to find a better analogy in an attempt to bring you around to my way of thinking, huh?

@Aaron:

With you all the way on Mckie. It’s great to be able to root for guys that are hard workers, and maximize whatever tools they have. Mckie was the epitomy of class and a great role model for the late 90’s and early 00’s Sixers teams. As good as AI was, the Sixer teams that made three 2nd rounds and one championship would have collapsed in about a millisecond if it wasn’t for the dual rock steady presence of Mckie and Eric Snow.

Could you imagine how much more out of control, on and off the court, Iverson would have been without those two playing moderator between him and LB, and helping mentor the guy? To this day Iverson, who in my opinion has undergone one of the more underrated maturation processes in sports during the last decade, repeatedly has said how thankful he is for both Snow and Mckie, and how much they influenced him to become the more responsible, and savvy person he is today (along with LB).

I can’t wait until Snow/Mckie follow the paths of Doug Collins, Cheeks and Iavaroni and become the lead assistant coaches for NBA teams…and eventual head coaches. LB has already snatched Snow up as soon as he could to be an assistant for the Bobcats, and I’m sure the “unofficial” will be inked to “official” with Mckie as a current assistant for our team this year.

jjg: Thanks for the update. It’s good to know Sammy is keeping himself in shape. Did the report mention his success rate, or if the bags of grain were suspected of being another plant product?

Gotta be Cheeks, Morty.

suede,

Six degrees of separation: Gus Hoefling…Uncle Ben…Bruce Lee…Steve Carlton…Tim McCarver…Joe Buck.

Archie shot 9,784 times in career. Damn good offensive player. Always wondered why they moved him to Baltimore for Freddie “Mad Dog” Carter. Bad Deal.